[077 Lasombra]

NOTICE: The topic header is just an example of a Clan(s) with switched Disciplines. Its not an opener for the debate of whos a real Brujah and who isn't. Thats a thread unto itself. Sorry for the mistake.

Until the recent City Gangrel thread, I've never given much thought on why a Clan specific Discipline vanishes when an Antidev is Diablorized properly. I saw a lot of good thoughts come in the Gangrel thread and think we might as well discuss this too.

Cappa was Diablorized by his childe Giovanni, Mortis vanished even though Giovanni would of been sired with that power.

Brujah was Diablorized by Trolie, who was sired with Temporis but somehow was unable to pass it down through his line. Not to mention the shift from Temporis to Celerity is just strange, I've heard that Celerit devolved from Temporis but it doesn't make sence. You move forward in time with Celerity, Temporis stops or reverses time. So while its a compelling arguement, I don't see it happening.

Salout was Diablorized by Tremere, who didn't gain Valern. But its sorta iffy if he would of gained it or not since he not only has more than one Clan's blood in him but also he wasn't sired by Salout to begin with.

Not sure theres much source material about what happens when you suck down an 3rd Gen afterall.


So, my scholars, lets hear your ideas, opinions or source-material-base-knowledge.

This post has been edited by 077 Lasombra: 19 April 2006 - 12:20 AM

[sandchigger]

Mortis didn't vanish, it became a necromantic path (because Necromancy was better and something the Giovanni already knew how to do) and was continued by the Samedi and the um... other bloodline whose name escapes me, but who were descended from the Cappadocians. They're in the Sabbat book, I think.

[Xolarin]

the um... other bloodline whose name escapes me, but who were descended from the Cappadocians.  They're in the Sabbat book, I think.

Harbringers of Skulls?

[Lost_Heretic]

Uh, Celerity coming from Temporis is only a theory, much like how no one truly knows if the True Brujah really are Brujah.

[077 Lasombra]

Mortis focusing more on Death itself, as opposed to the Dead and Gone.
Necromancy focusing on Souls and the spirit world while Mortis is in the living world and manipulates Death. Big differences but there are similarites.

The Harbingers of Skulls are Cappas that fled to the spirit-world place (can't remember the exact name at the moment) who came back to get their revenge. For whatever reason, they took on a different name (maybe cause its scarier ) but I think I read somewhere that they use a somewhat different form of Mortis. I'll have to check that out before I get into it anymore.

Your right on both points Heretic. The whole Temporis/Celerity theory is weak at best. And the debate as to who is Real Brujah and who isn't is very thread worthy but not on this thread. I'd like to focus on the Discipline aspect. Kudos though.

[sandchigger]

Harbringers of Skulls?

Them's the ones! Sometimes I have horrendous brainfarts and can't remember the simplest things

Mortis focusing more on Death itself, as opposed to the Dead and Gone.
Necromancy focusing on Souls and the spirit world while Mortis is in the living world and manipulates Death. Big differences but there are similarites.

Mortis the Discipline survives as a Path of Necromancy. Since the primary practitioners of Necromancy in the modern nights are the Giovanni and they don't like Mortis it doesn't see much use. It's still there, it's just now part of a greater whole.

The Harbingers of Skulls are Cappas that fled to the spirit-world place (can't remember the exact name at the moment) who came back to get their revenge. For whatever reason, they took on a different name (maybe cause its scarier ) but I think I read somewhere that they use a somewhat different form of Mortis. I'll have to check that out before I get into it anymore.

They use a Necromantic Path that is functionally identical to the Mortis discipline (except, of course, it has only five levels... the other levels are now Necromantic Rituals, I believe). Also, I thought they were the ones who got knocked over the head by Cappadocious for not being "good enough Cappadocians".

[077 Lasombra]

Ahh, thanks for that tid bit. I've only read a few books, have had to rely on bits on info on various websites (years of tid bits turn out nice). Thankfully I just aquired a collection of pdf books to read, 82 all together.

And the ones he bonked for not being good where the ones locked inside Kamalikya or whatever that city was called. It was in the ToJ novel. It was his main city or something and he called all his childer there, the ones he disliked were locked inside the cave-city to die a nasty slow death. The Harbingers are the few Cappa Elders that escaped the Giovanni purge into the dead realms. As far as I know, most of them were Elders but I'm sure generations vary.

But if they were Elders, why do they only have up to 5? I remember reading in the 13 Clan novel sage, one really old Cappa was tracked down by the Giovanni and he turned the one to ash in a blink. Unless its a Path power, it seems to be the 9th power "Death Unto You" but I'm not sure. Grr, so little on the Cappas in VtM. I must need to read some DA material.

[077 Lasombra]

I'm going to double post instead of edit, just so there isn't any confusion.
As it turns out, the Harbingers are some of the Cappa's that were locked in. They were able to use both Mortis and some aspects of Necromancy to escape Kaymakli into the deadlands. Took centuries to get out and when they did they went to the Sabbat and became Harbingers. Just happened to come across it while reading a file, heh.

[Morrigan]

Just to elaborate on the whole Mortis/Necromancy bit... going by Revised rules (i.e. Vampire Revised and DA: Vampire), they're pretty much the same thing with different names. Both are a school of Blood Magic focusing on the dead. When the Giovanni took over, they put their own spin on the Cappadocian paths, and changed the impetus that was put on each of them. Numerous Paths of Mortis from DA:V have direct analgies in Necromancy, with slightly changed mechanics. It's equivalent to a Tremere bloodline who focused on - say - Weather Control instead of Path of Blood. It's the same Discipline, just used in a different way.

Which I really like, because it means you can kit out elders in modern games with Mortis, and have a fun game of comparison with younger necromancers

[sandchigger]

Yeah, they basically retconned Mortis into an early (the earliest?) Necromantic Path.

[I Hate All Life]

Brujah was Diablorized by Trolie, who was sired with Temporis but somehow was unable to pass it down through his line. Not to mention the shift from Temporis to Celerity is just strange, I've heard that Celerit devolved from Temporis but it doesn't make sence. You move forward in time with Celerity, Temporis stops or reverses time. So while its a compelling arguement, I don't see it happening.

In Revised, Celerity came first; Temporis was apparently developed after Troile's diablarie debacle. Makes much more sense that way.

[Jagash]

In Revised, Celerity came first; Temporis was apparently developed after Troile's diablarie debacle.  Makes much more sense that way.

" Dude, i totally didn't mean to diablerize him. I'll fix it, i promise."

[sandchigger]

Where does it say that in Revised, btw? I don't doubt you, I just don't have that book... I think.

[Morrigan]

Possibly in the ST's Guide - or ST's Secrets - whichever one lists Temporis. Guide to High Clans also suggests similar origins, I think.

[Temple]

Ok, the Mortis/Necromancy issue:

The way I see it, Mortis dissappeared because there were no more Cappadocians left to teach it. Mortis, Necromancy, Thaumaturgy and a few others are not like the other Disciplines. They are like sciences, they have to be taught.
But wait, I hear you say. Disciplines like Dominate and Protean have to be taught as well! yes, they do, but not in the same way. Dominate, Protean, Presence, Fortitude and all the rest of them are abilities innate to the vampiric condition. It's like the difference between being taught to swim and being taught molecular biology. one is a natural function of the body, the opther is a theoretical science that not everyone can grasp immediately.

So Mortis dissappeared because
A) there were no more Capadocians left to teach it, and
B) the Giovanni favoured the spiritual side of death over the physical aspects.

Which is why it slowly died out. Sort of like phrenology.

Then theres the Temporis/Celerity issue. How can you be so sure that Celerity speeds time up instead of slowing time down, or otherwise altering the vampires relationship with time?

[Samuel Cramer]

Celerity is not a Brujah-only discipline. Saying that Celerety comes from Temporis is sort of strange, unless Assamite and Toreador are Brujah.

[sandchigger]

Maybe they learned it from the Brujah?

[I Hate All Life]

Not if you think, sandchigger. Celerity very likely came from Caine, and was passed down to the Third Generation through his childer. Those that claim otherwise are either isane or have agendas, and are bullshitting us.

No, wait! Wouldn't it make far more sense that no one (including Caine) had Celerity, then Triole diablarized the Brujah Ante and somehow fouled up Temporis, so he developed ten levels of Celerity nearly instantly instead, and then Triole taught it to the Warrior and Vizier Assamites and the Toreador for whatever reason -- because until the fall of Carthage, those poor Kindred only had two in-clan Disciplines, and were just waiting around for someone to teach them a third. Yeah. Let's go along with the accounts of a few True Brujah and agree with this, even though most learned members of their own bloodline disagree with them and admit Temporis was a later development. Celerity came from Temporis because a few bitter fanatic say it did, despite their lack of evidence for that claim and that it defies logic for it to have been like that.

Riiiiiiigggghhhht.

[sandchigger]

Also, I suppose that after I begin thinking about it, I'd have to ask myself how caitiff can develop it instinctually. Ok you're right, it probably came first.

[Samuel Cramer]

Celerity is obviously among the first disciplines, and the Storyteller's Handbook (p. 43) states that Celerity (in it's logical extreme) + Necromantic knowledge (read: Nihilistics) = Temporis.

Moving on, True Brujah is probably a sect within the clan. This sect learned Temporis by studying different aspects of celerity et cetera. However, adding the Necromantics (again. Nihilistics) had its drawbacks. The practitioners of Temporis were, as a result of using Nihilistic-ish disciplines, left unemotional to the point of it tipping their weakness from one extreme to the other (most likely, the inherent curse for all vampires to have a weakness is not picky as to which, as long as it is a weakness. However, their jaded attitude was not so strong as for them to remove all of their old weakness, for it remained as a hatred of the children of Troille, who killed the father of all true Brujah (writ small with good reason).

Therefore, the study of time and decay has made the True Brujah what they are.