[Mav]

A few of you folks were good enough to help me come up with some ideas for redesigning a Vampire centric WOD.

I have collected some initial ideas and hoped you guys could help fill the blanks.

None of this stuff is set in stone and I have been very general about the clans because I think some of the initial ideas may not fit with the new world.

So here goes (forgive me if anything makes little sense!)

The Clans

Assamite, Long dead assassin Clan.

Brujah, Independent.
Some Members in both sects, Independants are given respect as they could sway war of sects if they joined one side.

Gangrel, Independent.
Some members in both sects. As now but tend to travel and live in packs for protection.

Giovanni, Cammy.
Were approached to join after Brujah and Gangrel left, they agreed immediately which has left many wondering just how much the Clan had to do with the two clans leaving and the offer to join.

Lasombra, Sabbat.
want to change the MO of the Clan, want the Abyss to be a potentially scary place for clan members.

Malkavian, Sabbat.
Founder members of the sabbat, mix of paths, Fish Malks stuck down with the wrath of God instantly.

Noseratu, Sabbat & Cammarilla.
Lots scarier than now, Info is trusted but they are not, they are often the monsters they resemble, many on Paths. Official line for being in both Sects is that they are spying on the other side and they do, for both sides, universally feared and mistrusted, the bogey man.

Tremere, Cammy.
As now but want the Clan FLaw sorted and a reason for some to work in mixed partys other than cos she is a PC

Torreador, Cammy.
as now, Flaw needs work IMHO.

Tsimice, Sabbat.
As now except, elders are aware another clan exists in small number that stole the clan name, or maybe the other way around, they encourage war partys to remove the threat to the Clan.

Tsimice (Old Clan), Independent (and largely unknown)
As now except, a bastard clan stole there name, they seek to remove them and attempt to get other groups to destroy them, the clan is unknown by most and would prefer it if none knew of them.

Ventrue, Cammy.
as now but with added paranoia.

It is widely accepted an unknown 13th Clan was wiped out in the distant past, if anyone knows anything they are saying nothing!

Sects & Cults,

Cammy and Sabbat.

Both Sects has Clanless and members of the Independent clans, but very few antitribune exist as clans assasinate "Blood traitors".

The Sabbat

On a war footing, however despite some guidance from above they often find themselves following a Charismatic leader to war, with mixed results.

The Sabbat often simply holds its territory to prepare for a great explosive Crusade.

(I am not totally happy with this and feel it needs loads of work but is a better basis than the current Sabbat!)

The Cammys.

Ill suited to war rely on brain rather than brawn to wage wage, although Clan Giovanni well suited to the urban warfare that the sabbat bring.

(thinking, as they are now removing Brujah and Gangrel but adding some well managed Giovanni muscle)


Cults,

Blood Cults are often feared by the majority of the kindred (of both Sects and Independents) there is rumored to be many with anything from a handfull of members up to the two best known world wide cults.

Assamites,
Named after the Fallen Assassin clan, known to exist and "tolerated" by both Sects, draws members from all clans widely feared.

(Once members join the Cult proper they are inducted to the Path of Blood, the clan have no magics etc bar what members bring to the cult)

Setites,

Worship a Egyptian demon, draws members worldwide, common knowledge claims they are bogeymen to scare Neonates, lore proves otherwise.

(Does this need another Cult? I dont want many if any world spanning organizations!)



Others.

I dont want the WOD to be overstuffed with other supernaturals so I am thinking keep it to

Mages.
I think Mages need to be disinterested in Vamps or powered down some.

Wares.
Wolves only and they need a proper reason to exist, the Captin Planet stuff seems a bit 2D to me.

Hunters,
I love this game and think they work as is.

others?
anythoughts people?

This post has been edited by Mav: 24 August 2009 - 10:47 AM

[Bebop Cola]

I have a couple thoughts, if you're interested.

Malkavian, Sabbat.
Founder members of the sabbat, mix of paths, Fish Malks stuck down with the wrath of God instantly.

Honestly, I would expect the Malkavians to be the next in line for independent status after the Gangrel. I never got the impression Brujah dissatisfaction with the Camarilla was anything more than grumbling from the street-punk neonates.

While I will acknowledge that the average Malkavian is not the stereotypical poorly-functioning loony, and that the Malkavian Madness Network leverages a unity of the clan that other clans just don't have, Malkavians have always struck me as a clan that is generally too unfocused and random to make the claim that they could be considered card-carrying sect members, if you will.

Tremere, Cammy.
As now but want the Clan FLaw sorted and a reason for some to work in mixed partys other than cos she is a PC

I would argue that the Tremere clan flaw is somewhat open for debate. It never struck me as particularly well defined in the same sense as the other clan flaws.

I'd start by defining how you see the flaw and we can discuss it, if you're interested.

Torreador, Cammy.
as now, Flaw needs work IMHO.

This flaw is more of a role-playing element, and it is fairly well defined in my opinion. As with the Tremere flaw, however, I'd say let's start with how you see it and go from there.

Ventrue, Cammy.
as now but with added paranoia.

It is widely accepted an unknown 13th Clan was wiped out in the distant past, if anyone knows anything they are saying nothing!

I'm not sure I understand. Is the 13th clan the reason the Venture are paranoid?

Both Sects has Clanless and members of the Independent clans, but very few antitribune exist as clans assasinate "Blood traitors".

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "blood traitors" in this context. Arguably, the Antitribu of vanilla WoD are really no different from their parent clans, they simply called themselves antitribu as a form of unity against those of their clan in the Camarilla. I'm not sure I see how this is different from the clans you laid out who have members in more than one sect.

The Sabbat

On a war footing, however despite some guidance from above they often find themselves following a Charismatic leader to war, with mixed results.

The Sabbat often simply holds its territory to prepare for a great explosive Crusade.

(I am not totally happy with this and feel it needs loads of work but is a better basis than the current Sabbat!)

I'm not sure I see how this is terribly different from the vanilla Sabbat.

The Cammys.

Ill suited to war rely on brain rather than brawn to wage wage, although Clan Giovanni well suited to the urban warfare that the sabbat bring.

(thinking, as they are now removing Brujah and Gangrel but adding some well managed Giovanni muscle)

What kind of muscle do the Giovanni bring that a specially trained platoon of Ventrue could not?

I'm not trying to criticize your idea, just trying to understand it. While the Giovanni do have Potence, the ability to take a hit like a Ventrue with trained Fortitude but dish out damage like a normal human would(SWAT-like assault teams or other police/paramiliatary crisis response teams responding to "civil disturbances") seem to do better to protect the Masquerade than throwing a car at a rampaging Sabbat pack. Of course, the latter is pretty much what the Black Hand does in addition to throwing cars...

(Does this need another Cult? I dont want many if any world spanning organizations!)
Others.

I don't think you need to worry too much about world-spanning cults. considering that the overall population of vampires is pretty low, even a world-spanning cult is unlikely to have many members. Additionally, unless you ascribe beliefs and practices that go counter to their sect membership, then they are simply a religious(heretical or no) framework and do not really graduate to subsect or full sect status.

I dont want the WOD to be overstuffed with other supernaturals so I am thinking keep it to

Mages.
I think Mages need to be disinterested in Vamps or powered down some.

From a Vampire perspective, agreed. Mages, by design admittedly, are overpowered. I tend to prefer Sorcerer power levels myself.

Wares.
Wolves only and they need a proper reason to exist, the Captin Planet stuff seems a bit 2D to me.

From a Vampire perspective, I don't think they need a reason any more than vampires need a reason. It is worth considering, however, that if you leave them the same powers in your VtM game as they have in WtA, it does beg that question. If you strip some of those powers down a bit, they can become more manageable, though they no longer really remain Garou.

If that is your preference, and as a shameless personal plug, might I suggest something like the Sala Lupine Clan I posited in the Dark Ages forum?

[Mav]

I am replying but don’t want to re quote everything cos it would look messy!


Malkavian, Sabbat.
I agree with the sect membership thing, but I think they fit better with the sabbat than the cammys, and I think if you buy into the madness network thing (I do) that would add “issues” to the ones they already have.


Tremere, Cammy.
While I have little issue with the flaw as is, I don’t think it works if you are in a mixed party for PC’s.


Torreador, Cammy.
Only ever seen the flaw used twice in around 15 years of playing.


Ventrue, Cammy.
The 13th clan was a separate thing not attached to the Ventrue!
I just think if you add a dose of Paranoia to them as is they work better.


Blood Trators
the Antitribu get wiped out, a mix of Elysium bragging and they are spoken of as Blood Traitors, with status awarded for removing them.


The Cammys.
Re the Giovanni, I think they would make a better hash of defence than mixed clans based on how the clan works!
I cant imagine many Ventrue would be happy to have childer that are just destined for defence.

[Bebop Cola]

Malkavian, Sabbat.
I agree with the sect membership thing, but I think they fit better with the sabbat than the cammys, and I think if you buy into the madness network thing (I do) that would add “issues” to the ones they already have.

I think the main problem I would have with it is the general inhumanity of the Sabbat. I'm not speaking from the standpoint of them being inhumane, rather that they are a sect that actively strives to cast off their humanity in preference to some sense of vampire-ness. I don't see the Malkavians, as a whole, necessarily embracing that.

That's just my opinion, anyway.

Tremere, Cammy.
While I have little issue with the flaw as is, I don’t think it works if you are in a mixed party for PC’s.

I still don't understand. The Tremere weakness is an ever-present plot hook. They are always tied back to their clan. While this doesn't mean they are asking for permission on every action, it does mean that any action the group elects to pursue can be initiated, supported, or hindered by that player's ties to their clan.

As clan curses go, it can be seen as a little weak, but it is generally up to the ST to bring it into play when appropriate. Considering that the other clans have curses that affect them nightly, it seems only reasonable that the ST demonstrate the oppressive rigidity of the clan organization and the general lack of privacy clan members labor under coming from a gathering of undead sorcerers who can scry you at any time using your blood as a tracer. Tremere are respected but only trusted as far as necessary, and for good reason.

Torreador, Cammy.
Only ever seen the flaw used twice in around 15 years of playing.

As with the Tremere curse, it is up to the ST to bring this one into play. It can be applied in both critical situations or non, but when applied strategically, can bring a coterie together or tear them apart.

Alternatively it can be applied as a way of showing the character their devolving humanity as their fascination with beauty starts to become a fascination with the grotesque.

Blood Trators
the Antitribu get wiped out, a mix of Elysium bragging and they are spoken of as Blood Traitors, with status awarded for removing them.

Again, not that I'm criticizing your idea, but that would represent a fairly major offensive on the part of the main portion of the clans in question. I respect that a certain amount of hand-waiving is essential when creating a fictional setting, but it may be something that innocently comes up unless campires are specifically depicted as more clan-loyal and/or martially inclined in favor of said clan. Alternatively, it could just mean big business for the Assamite faction you created.

The Cammys.
Re the Giovanni, I think they would make a better hash of defence than mixed clans based on how the clan works!
I cant imagine many Ventrue would be happy to have childer that are just destined for defence.

I dunno, they are a fairly dysfunctional lot, and somewhat absorbed in their necromantic objectives. They can certainly provide excellent intelligence services and possibly non-interceptable communication routes, however. They could also provide a possible harassing force to disorganize hard targets prior to a major assault. All things considered, however, I'm not sure I'd want to rely on the Giovanni to provide a good squad to push back a Sabbat Crusade, and especially not a Black Hand assault.

A given Venture might be the owner or major shareholder of a private security firm, and just happens to have the elite divisions(specially trained vampire and ghoul teams of his own direct lineage) on retainer. Such an individual could earn a great number of boons and wealth to boot.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Ventrue have historically been soldiers as well as generals. For the Childer, of particular import would be who they follow. Odds are, they would be resistant to following non-Ventrue on principle, though it would be unreasonable, I think, to say they couldn't be won over. Obviously it is a high-risk type of employment, so their very service is earning them social credit with their sire and possibly others in the trenches that they can cash in on later. The camaraderie that can develop in a life and death situation is the kind that typically lasts a lifetime, or more when talking about vampires. I doubt the given soldier's sire expects them to remain a soldier forever, after-all. I would expect the sire to push them to expand the business or otherwise improve that lineage's influence in some way once they have received enough training and experience in the employ of the security firm.

[Gurkhal]

Mages.
I think Mages need to be disinterested in Vamps or powered down some.

Wares.
Wolves only and they need a proper reason to exist, the Captin Planet stuff seems a bit 2D to me.

Hunters,
I love this game and think they work as is.

others?
anythoughts people?

I was wondering if these are the only proposed changes to the setting, because it was a bit little and not all of it was explained. I myself would probably change things on several other areas as well, although some of you're ideas seems pretty cool to me. But on the big questions is if you want to re-design, as in a reboot of the setting. Or if you just want to polish the existing setting a little?

Regarding the things above, how about these ideas?

Mages: more or less all humans with magical/supernatural abilities falls into this, so peraps you don't need to have Ascension-types of Mages in the game if you're going to it from a vampire-centric way?

Werewolves: Who knows? Perhaps there isn't a single big answer like in the Apocalypse, only that they are known/believed to hunt vampire? Hell, perhpas there isn't even werewovles for real, but its actually about crazy Gangrel/other bestial vampires on very low humanity or some "natural predator" Path that senses tresspassing on their territory and attacks the vampires, giving rise the legend of the werewolves? This myth could also be propagated by sires and elders who wishes to make sure that their childer and inferiors don't simply go to a new town when the oppression is heavy.

Hunters: Why do we need supernatural different hunters? Why not just call all humans who hunts vampires as hunters, and then say that among them are a number who possesses supernatural powers?

[pascale]

Why bother bringing in the Old Clan Tzimizce, if you aren't going to bring in all the other Old Clans?

True Brujah, Cappadocians/Samedis/Harbingers, Serpents of Light, Salubri, etc.

I mean, what's the obsession with the Old Clan anyways? They're nothing more than a half dozen old foggies stuck in castles (which applies to ANY clan, and fits the Ventrue concept better too). How are they in any way relevant as a faction? Hell, even the True Brujah have more going for them, and they are super pathetic... Besides, do you really need another bloodline with Dominate?

[Mav]

Why bother bringing in the Old Clan Tzimizce, if you aren't going to bring in all the other Old Clans?

The idea being they are not an "old Clan" at all but instead the only clan.

I am asking for ideas towards building this world so feel free to actually contribute.

[pascale]

That's why I'm asking these questions, so I can effectively contribute (and I am harsh on my comments, sorry).

Well, you have both and old and new clan written up, one in the sabbat and one independent. Are you saying they are both like the Old Clan (i.e. no vicissitute) or that they are both like the new clan (vicissitude) except with a seething hatred for each other, like two factions of the same blooldine? Are they actually different bloodlines like in the oWoD?

Does a "largely unknown" bloodline with a redundant concept (ventrues already cover the aristocratic schtick, and any elder can be a castle-bound noble) really warrant inclusion?

If it is for plot material, then again I wonder why you don't bring in the true Brujah, who also want revenge for usurpation, etc?

I'm trying to see what your tastes and judgments are...


As for contribution, based on what you've said so far:

-Get rid of the toreador: concept is too narrow, can be filled by others (artists and poseurs can be made from all clans, particularly the Brujah and Ventrue), weakness barely relevant...

If you want to keep them, then I'd make their weakness something more along the lines of being addicted to the humans they feed on, a sort of blood bond if you will. That would at least give them somewhat of a personality (they literally fall in love, get obsessed, jealous, irrational) beyond just being the "popular kid on campus", and it plays nicely off the Ventrue feeding restriction: give them a reason to "band together" to keep the Cammy together... A clan bound to humans or humanity offers a lot more options than "immortal hipster."

-The Tremere weakness can play well in mixed coteries, but only if you take the time to have the clan interfere in the coterie's goals. Then the character has to make a choice.

Else, I would also get rid of them as a clan, and turn them into an Order (which they are) that practices magic and has some goal/purpose as relates to vampiric nature and/or gehenna. Perhaps they worship the Antediluvians... Perhaps all who develop thaumaturgy similarly develop red eyes a la Gambit or something that gives them away, a common weakness born from practice...

-I would move away from making clans sect exclusive (i.e. killing blood traitors). On the Contrary, I would expand so that both sects have all clans, with animosity of course... The exception would be clans whose structure does not allow such freedom (i.e. Giovanni--who are all one big family--or the Tremere, who are all blood bound and therefore act as one)

-The Sabbat IS a cult. Specifically, a Gehenna cult. Meaning they'd probably kill Setites and Assamites cults, who both seem to worship antediluvians...

-though I don't know what your assamite cult is about... Are they hunters of kindred? Do they worship one antediluvian like the old Ass-mites did Haqim? If they are for hire, then both sects would probably tolerate them. If not, then both would try to stamp them out...

-The Mysteriously wiped out 13th clan is cool, except you don't have 12 clans here (Tzimizces are variants of each other), and the assamite have also been wiped out (redundant concept). Either make the Assamites a clan, or don't. No need to have a non-existent clan to create a cult.

-Above all, really define what the Camariila's position is on gehenna. The main weakness in Masquerade was that only a moron would believe their party line of "there's no such thing," and anybody with half a mind would have joined the Sabbat, even if it was just another pawn. They had elders old beyond imagining, obvious generational limits (else diablerie would not have been interesting) and therefore obvious descent from the antediluvians, etc. Not to mention the clans...
One way could be to say that they acknowledge the existence of their founders, but also know for a fact that the elders won't awaken to eat them all, or something like that? That opens up room in the sect for gehenna cults and the like to openly worship if they like, though the sect as a whole may not condone such practice.

This post has been edited by pascale: 04 September 2009 - 09:28 PM

[Bebop Cola]

-Get rid of the toreador: concept is too narrow, can be filled by others (artists and poseurs can be made from all clans, particularly the Brujah and Ventrue), weakness barely relevant...

If you want to keep them, then I'd make their weakness something more along the lines of being addicted to the humans they feed on, a sort of blood bond if you will. That would at least give them somewhat of a personality (they literally fall in love, get obsessed, jealous, irrational) beyond just being the "popular kid on campus", and it plays nicely off the Ventrue feeding restriction: give them a reason to "band together" to keep the Cammy together... A clan bound to humans or humanity offers a lot more options than "immortal hipster."

This is a pretty awesome idea. It adds some depth to the Ventrue-Toreador alliance and solves the Toreador curse issue nicely(or messily, which is perhaps more appropriate for curses). I think I will be stealing this Pascale...

-The Tremere weakness can play well in mixed coteries, but only if you take the time to have the clan interfere in the coterie's goals. Then the character has to make a choice.

Else, I would also get rid of them as a clan, and turn them into an Order (which they are) that practices magic and has some goal/purpose as relates to vampiric nature and/or gehenna. Perhaps they worship the Antediluvians... Perhaps all who develop thaumaturgy similarly develop red eyes a la Gambit or something that gives them away, a common weakness born from practice...

I agree here on all counts. The Tremere, as is, have a pretty potent flaw that compromises their trustworthiness and balances their value to a neonate coterie, but only if the ST chooses to make a special effort. Understandably, that may not be to everyone's preference. The Tremere, then, as an order of vampire sorcerers with no regard to clan works decently enough. The vanilla Tremere flaw can even still be applied, though as it would be a sect flaw it could be done much more leniently.

Of course, with the way the Tremere originated, it does make sense that the core membership for the new order be predominantly one clan or bloodline, but that could even be Old Clan Tzimisce without the hoary elder trappings. That is, unless you want to completely re-write the Tremere origins. I think there is some value in a mortal mage house emerging into vampire society and bringing structure to the otherwise disparate practices of existing blood sorcerers, just that they don't really need to create a new bloodline or clan to do so.

-Above all, really define what the Camariila's position is on gehenna. The main weakness in Masquerade was that only a moron would believe their party line of "there's no such thing," and anybody with half a mind would have joined the Sabbat, even if it was just another pawn. They had elders old beyond imagining, obvious generational limits (else diablerie would not have been interesting) and therefore obvious descent from the antediluvians, etc. Not to mention the clans...
One way could be to say that they acknowledge the existence of their founders, but also know for a fact that the elders won't awaken to eat them all, or something like that? That opens up room in the sect for gehenna cults and the like to openly worship if they like, though the sect as a whole may not condone such practice.

Personally I think the obsession with Gehenna is a problem with the setting and one that can be easily enough done away with. Not everyone wants to deal with Gehenna scenarios so basing any sect around them is somewhat forcing the issue. I don't see why both Sabbat and Camarilla need to necessarily deal with Gehenna rather than focusing on how vampires are supposed to live. Camarilla focuses more on a mortal-style of living while the Sabbat tosses that aside.

Issues of Gehenna may then be believed or denied within both sects while the greater theme of each is more about how vampires live their nightly lives. In all honesty, it makes sense that the Sabbat would be the sect of the elders despite it's origins since it's focus on vampires living as vampires rather than clawing at their humanity is more in line with the way the game describes elders migrating in time.

In short, perhaps a flipping of the sects is appropriate. Camarilla is predominantly young vampires following Humanity while it is still fresh in their minds with a few elders clinging to that mold while the Sabbat is primarily inhuman elder vampires who use their childer as fodder to try and crush the rebellious Camarilla. In the meantime, neither sect particularly comments on Gehenna any more than average mortals comment on the end of the world. At the same time, both are rife with gehenna cults and those worshiping of the ancients(not that they aren't in vanilla oWoD) out of fear or a desire for power.

[Agatana]

My thoughts on the matter being a Childe of Malkav. Gehenna is simply another point of contention between the sects. I personally would never play in nor run a Gehenna setting. I could never see myself as a Sabbat unless I played a Clan mainstreamed into the sect, Tzimisce or Lasombra. I would like to see the Assamite remain, as an independent. The old Clan I would like to see come back are the Cappadocians, even though I understand why they had to go to make way for the Giovanni. The one thing I really dislike, are the caricature characters some make of any Clan. I do like the choice one has to make, when allowed to do so, whether to attempt to retain humanity or not. And the, almost invariably, vain struggle to do so.

Agatana

[pascale]

This is a pretty awesome idea. It adds some depth to the Ventrue-Toreador alliance and solves the Toreador curse issue nicely(or messily, which is perhaps more appropriate for curses). I think I will be stealing this Pascale...

your welcome!

I agree here on all counts. The Tremere, as is, have a pretty potent flaw that compromises their trustworthiness and balances their value to a neonate coterie, but only if the ST chooses to make a special effort. Understandably, that may not be to everyone's preference. The Tremere, then, as an order of vampire sorcerers with no regard to clan works decently enough. The vanilla Tremere flaw can even still be applied, though as it would be a sect flaw it could be done much more leniently.

Yeah, that's really good.

Of course, with the way the Tremere originated, it does make sense that the core membership for the new order be predominantly one clan or bloodline, but that could even be Old Clan Tzimisce without the hoary elder trappings. That is, unless you want to completely re-write the Tremere origins. I think there is some value in a mortal mage house emerging into vampire society and bringing structure to the otherwise disparate practices of existing blood sorcerers, just that they don't really need to create a new bloodline or clan to do so.

Plus, it would make sense that they'd have caught several different vampires and experimented with the change each clan brings... Unless they'd decided to then settle on one bloodline as more promising and do an ethnic cleansing of sorts, there's no reason they'd be a single bloodline. (although that could make for some interesting plot conflicts if there were survivors of that period wanting revenge on the order...)

Personally I think the obsession with Gehenna is a problem with the setting and one that can be easily enough done away with. Not everyone wants to deal with Gehenna scenarios so basing any sect around them is somewhat forcing the issue. I don't see why both Sabbat and Camarilla need to necessarily deal with Gehenna rather than focusing on how vampires are supposed to live. Camarilla focuses more on a mortal-style of living while the Sabbat tosses that aside.

I really don't think gehenna should be done away with. It's optional after all. If you don't want to use it in the game, then it's just a myth and you leave it at that. Hell, it's even a myth that most people have not heard about in any detail, so your characters may not even be aware of its existence.
In fact, even if you were to bring it in the game, unless you actually decide to bring on the end days, gehenna's presence in the game is gonna be nothing more than how people react to the myth, to its possibility, rather than to it per say. I mean, in that sense, you might as well make sure that there are no latter-day saints in your game either, because they also freak out about a supposed end time: The Rapture...

So it's not a matter of obsessing over it. Gehenna is not the only issue the sects deal with, but it is one where the Camarilla's position was sorely lacking. It's not fundamental to that sect, but it still needs to be treated properly. The sect is very well defined on many other aspects, but on this one it sorely lacks credibility and consistency when faced by an enemy like the sabbat.

Gehenna is,however, central to the Sabbat's concept because the sect is basically one big gehenna cult. It fundamentally colors their pseudo-religious beliefs and their modus operandi. You can't just do away with it without fundamentally changing the Sabbat.

Consider that if the only difference between the two sects is vampiric supremicism (which it really isn't), then why would they war with each other? Each is convinced in the correctness of their lifestyle, and each are immortal, so really, all they'd have to do is wait each other out and then say "told you so". In fact, outliving your enemy is a pretty consistent vampiric axiom, particularly for the Camarilla.

The reason the Sabbat doesn't do this and actively wars on the Camarilla is because they know their time is limited, that they cannot wait for the old foggies to stumble over their humanity and be proven wrong. A War is coming, and you are either with us or against us. It is that sense of urgency that drives the Sabbat war effort.

and in fact that fanatical war effort was kind of the point in playing the Sabbat. I mean, if all you wanted to do was play a vampire, inhumane or not, you could do that in the Camarilla. It had enough internal conflict to make that happen, and it's not a crime to be a monster in the camarilla, just a sloppy one. The sabbat gave players the opportunity to actually confront this underlying mythos in the game, to really shake down the power structures of the elders, etc etc.

Issues of Gehenna may then be believed or denied within both sects while the greater theme of each is more about how vampires live their nightly lives. In all honesty, it makes sense that the Sabbat would be the sect of the elders despite it's origins since it's focus on vampires living as vampires rather than clawing at their humanity is more in line with the way the game describes elders migrating in time.

In short, perhaps a flipping of the sects is appropriate. Camarilla is predominantly young vampires following Humanity while it is still fresh in their minds with a few elders clinging to that mold while the Sabbat is primarily inhuman elder vampires who use their childer as fodder to try and crush the rebellious Camarilla. In the meantime, neither sect particularly comments on Gehenna any more than average mortals comment on the end of the world. At the same time, both are rife with gehenna cults and those worshiping of the ancients(not that they aren't in vanilla oWoD) out of fear or a desire for power.

Neither sect was particularly humane though. The camarilla was populated with monsters too,some of them on paths, and the vast majority of the Sabbat were incapable of following paths, and rather survived on very low humanity. The difference was that the camarilla insisted on a very fundamental discreetness about their activities to survive (very much an elder trope that) and total stifling obedience from underlings, with again an optional underlying threat/understanding that if gehenna were true, they'd send the kiddies as supper for grandpa.
That was part of the camarilla's schtick after all: some of their elders were so old that they actually were the direct descendants of the antediluvians in many cases, and therefore had a true inkling of what was happening.

The Sabbat was born out of the anarch rebellion. They embraced their vampiric nature in the same way that they embraced the myths about gehenna: they weren't about to deny the truth. The reason they couldn't deny that truth was because the two main clans (Lasombra and Tzimizce) had actually chowed down on their founder. They weren't myths to them.
The Sabbat, therefore, is about freedom to be the kind of vampire you want to be...at least on the surface. It's paramilitary nature made elders capable of demanding much of underlings, and while it's monomancy rituals, and its high death rate due to conflict, meant moving up the ranks was much more feasible, when you really look at the fundamentals, both sects were extremely similar.

But it's a big mistake to assume that the Camarilla is about humanity and the Sabbat inhumanity. They are both filled with monsters, and both have little to no compassion for mortals or their values. One just wants to be very discreet about it.

This post has been edited by pascale: 06 September 2009 - 08:30 PM

[Agatana]

your welcome!

Yeah, that's really good.
Plus, it would make sense that they'd have caught several different vampires and experimented with the change each clan brings... Unless they'd decided to then settle on one bloodline as more promising and do an ethnic cleansing of sorts, there's no reason they'd be a single bloodline. (although that could make for some interesting plot conflicts if there were survivors of that period wanting revenge on the order...)

I really don't think gehenna should be done away with. It's optional after all. If you don't want to use it in the game, then it's just a myth and you leave it at that. Hell, it's even a myth that most people have not heard about in any detail, so your characters may not even be aware of its existence.
In fact, even if you were to bring it in the game, unless you actually decide to bring on the end days, gehenna's presence in the game is gonna be nothing more than how people react to the myth, to its possibility, rather than to it per say. I mean, in that sense, you might as well make sure that there are no latter-day saints in your game either, because they also freak out about a supposed end time: The Rapture...

So it's not a matter of obsessing over it. Gehenna is not the only issue the sects deal with, but it is one where the Camarilla's position was sorely lacking. It's not fundamental to that sect, but it still needs to be treated properly. The sect is very well defined on many other aspects, but on this one it sorely lacks credibility and consistency when faced by an enemy like the sabbat.

Gehenna is,however, central to the Sabbat's concept because the sect is basically one big gehenna cult. It fundamentally colors their pseudo-religious beliefs and their modus operandi. You can't just do away with it without fundamentally changing the Sabbat.

Consider that if the only difference between the two sects is vampiric supremicism (which it really isn't), then why would they war with each other? Each is convinced in the correctness of their lifestyle, and each are immortal, so really, all they'd have to do is wait each other out and then say "told you so". In fact, outliving your enemy is a pretty consistent vampiric axiom, particularly for the Camarilla.

The reason the Sabbat doesn't do this and actively wars on the Camarilla is because they know their time is limited, that they cannot wait for the old foggies to stumble over their humanity and be proven wrong. A War is coming, and you are either with us or against us. It is that sense of urgency that drives the Sabbat war effort.

and in fact that fanatical war effort was kind of the point in playing the Sabbat. I mean, if all you wanted to do was play a vampire, inhumane or not, you could do that in the Camarilla. It had enough internal conflict to make that happen, and it's not a crime to be a monster in the camarilla, just a sloppy one. The sabbat gave players the opportunity to actually confront this underlying mythos in the game, to really shake down the power structures of the elders, etc etc.
Neither sect was particularly humane though. The camarilla was populated with monsters too,some of them on paths, and the vast majority of the Sabbat were incapable of following paths, and rather survived on very low humanity. The difference was that the camarilla insisted on a very fundamental discreetness about their activities to survive (very much an elder trope that) and total stifling obedience from underlings, with again an optional underlying threat/understanding that if gehenna were true, they'd send the kiddies as supper for grandpa.
That was part of the camarilla's schtick after all: some of their elders were so old that they actually were the direct descendants of the antediluvians in many cases, and therefore had a true inkling of what was happening.

The Sabbat was born out of the anarch rebellion. They embraced their vampiric nature in the same way that they embraced the myths about gehenna: they weren't about to deny the truth. The reason they couldn't deny that truth was because the two main clans (Lasombra and Tzimizce) had actually chowed down on their founder. They weren't myths to them.
The Sabbat, therefore, is about freedom to be the kind of vampire you want to be...at least on the surface. It's paramilitary nature made elders capable of demanding much of underlings, and while it's monomancy rituals, and its high death rate due to conflict, meant moving up the ranks was much more feasible, when you really look at the fundamentals, both sects were extremely similar.

But it's a big mistake to assume that the Camarilla is about humanity and the Sabbat inhumanity. They are both filled with monsters, and both have little to no compassion for mortals or their values. One just wants to be very discreet about it.

Pascale, I agree with your assessment of the last two points. The Camarilla Elders simply wanted to deny it. If they could force their denial upon others longand hard enough maybe it would go away and remain just that, a myth. The Sabbat on the other hand were realists and if they could get to the other Clans Antedeluvians maybe Gehenna could be forestalled.
Humanity is each individuals choice in how to deal with the rest of their unlife, whether to try and maintain some semblence of their previous humanity or to forswear it completely and get on with being the monsters they actually were.

Agatana

[Mav]

my idea was to keep the "old clan Tzimisce" complete with Blood magic.

The clan within the Sabbat are something else completely - claiming anothers name, why I was hoping to flesh out.

[pascale]

Except the Old Clan didn't have Blood Magic. That was very much the Vicissitude clan's schtick.

I still question the purpose in adding such a limited and redundant concept to the game, but more power to you...

[Agatana]

Agatana, on 07 September 2009 - 01:43 AM, said:

<!--quoteo(post=470225: date=Sep 6 2009, 12:26 PM:name=pascale)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pascale @ Sep 6 2009, 12:26 PM) </div><div class='quotemain'><!-- quotec-->your welcome!

Yeah, that's really good.
Plus, it would make sense that they'd have caught several different vampires and experimented with the change each clan brings... Unless they'd decided to then settle on one bloodline as more promising and do an ethnic cleansing of sorts, there's no reason they'd be a single bloodline. (although that could make for some interesting plot conflicts if there were survivors of that period wanting revenge on the order...)

I really don't think gehenna should be done away with. It's optional after all. If you don't want to use it in the game, then it's just a myth and you leave it at that. Hell, it's even a myth that most people have not heard about in any detail, so your characters may not even be aware of its existence.
In fact, even if you were to bring it in the game, unless you actually decide to bring on the end days, gehenna's presence in the game is gonna be nothing more than how people react to the myth, to its possibility, rather than to it per say. I mean, in that sense, you might as well make sure that there are no latter-day saints in your game either, because they also freak out about a supposed end time: The Rapture...

So it's not a matter of obsessing over it. Gehenna is not the only issue the sects deal with, but it is one where the Camarilla's position was sorely lacking. It's not fundamental to that sect, but it still needs to be treated properly. The sect is very well defined on many other aspects, but on this one it sorely lacks credibility and consistency when faced by an enemy like the sabbat.

Gehenna is,however, central to the Sabbat's concept because the sect is basically one big gehenna cult. It fundamentally colors their pseudo-religious beliefs and their modus operandi. You can't just do away with it without fundamentally changing the Sabbat.

Consider that if the only difference between the two sects is vampiric supremicism (which it really isn't), then why would they war with each other? Each is convinced in the correctness of their lifestyle, and each are immortal, so really, all they'd have to do is wait each other out and then say "told you so". In fact, outliving your enemy is a pretty consistent vampiric axiom, particularly for the Camarilla.

The reason the Sabbat doesn't do this and actively wars on the Camarilla is because <i>they know their time is limited</i>, that they cannot wait for the old foggies to stumble over their humanity and be proven wrong. A War is coming, and you are either with us or against us. It is that sense of urgency that drives the Sabbat war effort.

and in fact that fanatical war effort was kind of <i>the point in playing the Sabbat.</i> I mean, if all you wanted to do was play a vampire, inhumane or not, you could do that in the Camarilla. It had enough internal conflict to make that happen, and it's not a crime to be a monster in the camarilla, just a sloppy one. The sabbat gave players the opportunity to actually confront this underlying mythos in the game, to really shake down the power structures of the elders, etc etc.
Neither sect was particularly humane though. The camarilla was populated with monsters too,some of them on paths, and the vast majority of the Sabbat were incapable of following paths, and rather survived on very low humanity. The difference was that the camarilla insisted on a very fundamental discreetness about their activities to survive (very much an elder trope that) and total stifling obedience from underlings, with again an optional underlying threat/understanding that if gehenna were true, they'd send the kiddies as supper for grandpa.
That was part of the camarilla's schtick after all: some of their elders were so old that they actually were the direct descendants of the antediluvians in many cases, and therefore had a true inkling of what was happening.

The Sabbat was born out of the anarch rebellion. They embraced their vampiric nature in the same way that they embraced the myths about gehenna: they weren't about to deny the truth. The reason they couldn't deny that truth was because the two main clans (Lasombra and Tzimizce) had actually chowed down on their founder. They weren't myths to them.
The Sabbat, therefore, is about freedom to be the kind of vampire you want to be...at least on the surface. It's paramilitary nature made elders capable of demanding much of underlings, and while it's monomancy rituals, and its high death rate due to conflict, meant moving up the ranks was much more feasible, when you really look at the fundamentals, both sects were extremely similar.

But it's a big mistake to assume that the Camarilla is about humanity and the Sabbat inhumanity. They are both filled with monsters, and both have little to no compassion for mortals or their values. One just wants to be very discreet about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div> <!--QuoteEEnd-->

Pascale, I agree with your assessment of the last two points. The Camarilla Elders simply wanted to deny it. If they could force their denial upon others longand hard enough maybe it would go away and remain just that, a myth. The Sabbat on the other hand were realists and if they could get to the other Clans Antedeluvians maybe Gehenna could be forestalled.
Humanity is each individuals choice in how to deal with the rest of their unlife, whether to try and maintain some semblence of their previous humanity or to forswear it completely and get on with being the monsters they actually were.

Agatana

I don't know how this happened, but I hope everyone is aware that only the last two paragraphs of this post are mine.

Agatana

[Bebop Cola]

pascale, on 10 September 2009 - 12:33 PM, said:

Except the Old Clan didn't have Blood Magic. That was very much the Vicissitude clan's schtick.

I still question the purpose in adding such a limited and redundant concept to the game, but more power to you...

My understanding was that the Old Clan Tzimisce were the main practitioners of Koldunism. I don't have my books handy, so please correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

[pascale]

Nope, they pretty much are a bunch of old Fogies. Except for the Black Hand Anti-Vicissitude crusaders. But as with many things, WW contradicts itself on these issues (purposefully, I might add).

In the earlier editions, a koldun was a tzimisce who had mastered his horrid form (vicissitude 4) and commanded respect because of it. It was later used as the name of the clan's blood sorcerers.

Koldunic sorcery was used to break the blood bonds and form the first vinculums of the proto-Sabbat during the Anarch revolt. Essential to those rituals was something called Kupala's flower.

The first detailing of Koldunic sorcery in "Blood Magics" makes absolutely no reference to the Old Clan. Nor does the Old Clan's only write-up, in the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, a far older book, make any reference to Koldunic sorcery either, but that's not entirely surprising as the sorcery only came into being in the 3rd edition. In fact, the whole purpose of the Old Clan is as a foible to the "disease" of vicissitude, which the Black Hand, in experimenting in the Umbra with mages (i know, I know), brought back. Koldunic sorcery has also been described as an element in the creation of Vozhd "flesh-tanks" and other Vicissitude monstrosities, again punting the Old Clan out of the picture.

The only comment I could find linking the two is in the revised clanbook, before the description of a new path of Koldunic sorcery, which states Koldunic sorcery was originally the purview of the Old Clan. It makes no attempt to explain that comment, even when it describes who the Old Clan is--making no mention, I should add, about the whole Black Hand fiasco. They knew the story sucked, so they just commented that the Old Clan doesn't say why they have beef. No more vicissitude disease, and therefore no reason for the Old Clan to be at war, and therefore they are now on speaking terms with the main clan. Whoop dee doo!

But even that one comment linking the sorcery with the Old Clan is contradicted within that book too.

Almost every source agrees that the demon Kupala taught the Eldest Koldunic sorcery, and the most detailed account of that story is in the Revised clanbook.

It is through that sorcery that the Eldest trapped Kupala into the earth, which some say is the source of the Tzimisce weakness. It's the demon's curse. The Eldest then taught it to the rest of the clan. While this source for the weakness and magic would seem to validate the idea of the Old Clan being the original practitioners of the sorcery, this is contradicted by the fact that the Eldest already practiced vicissitude.
Earlier in the telling of the same story, the Eldest is described employing vicissitude on humans of Enoch and the second city, using them as canvases and such to try and recapture his lost creativity, his spark of life, of evolution. He is also described using vicissitude to disfigure Nosferatu and his bloodline. Ergo, not only could the Old Clan never have been born in this telling, but Koldunic sorcery came millennia after vicissitude.
Note that this story of the weaknesses contradicts the other one, which is Caine got pissed at all the 3rds, including the Eldest and Nosferatu, and cursed them all at the same time. (personally, I like the first other one better).

Now, the only way that those stories can be used mildly convincingly in my mind, is that the Old Clan, fearing the disease, decided to become foremost experts in the clan's other weapon, Koldunic Sorcery, in order to defend itself. But that means accepting the whole Black Hand nonsense, and that sucks. The other way to look at it is that the Old Clan is actually a New Clan that pussied out of Vicissitude, and turned to Koldunic Sorcery to make up for it. But that also sucks.

Basically, the Old Clan sucks. It really doesn't have a purpose in the game, and is a throwback to one of the worst thought out supplements WW ever created, the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.

Granted, if you have a hard-on for a bloodline whose concept isn't unique ("you mean they are the only ones who hang out in castles"), is geographically limited to the most rural areas of eastern europe (and therefore will never be in any chronicle that doesn't go there), and whose whole purpose for being is stopping a disease that got retconned out of the game, please, by all means, make them Koldunic super-monsters.

[Bebop Cola]

pascale, on 11 September 2009 - 06:08 PM, said:

Now, the only way that those stories can be used mildly convincingly in my mind, is that the Old Clan, fearing the disease, decided to become foremost experts in the clan's other weapon, Koldunic Sorcery, in order to defend itself. But that means accepting the whole Black Hand nonsense, and that sucks. The other way to look at it is that the Old Clan is actually a New Clan that pussied out of Vicissitude, and turned to Koldunic Sorcery to make up for it. But that also sucks.

Basically, the Old Clan sucks. It really doesn't have a purpose in the game, and is a throwback to one of the worst thought out supplements WW ever created, the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.

Granted, if you have a hard-on for a bloodline whose concept isn't unique ("you mean they are the only ones who hang out in castles"), is geographically limited to the most rural areas of eastern europe (and therefore will never be in any chronicle that doesn't go there), and whose whole purpose for being is stopping a disease that got retconned out of the game, please, by all means, make them Koldunic super-monsters.

Wow, that's pretty strongly put.

Your description of the winding path to the present incarnation of the Old Clan is pretty much as I remember it as well. I tend to disregard the retconned journey and run with the final version, however(pruning out the contradictions that I don't like while I'm at it). What I arrive at is a bloodline who saw Vicissitude as the most obvious attempt of the Eldest to directly control his clan. Realizing this they do everything they can to purge it from themselves. They pick up Dominate instead and take on a rustic-Ventrue aspect. They practice Koldunic Sorcery in it's final game implementation for the mysticism it imparts as well as the power over their lands. I also tend to separate Koldunic Sorcery from the Kupala corruption element. The brand that the Tzimisce of the Old Country practice in Kupala's shadow certainly is corrupt, but they're working with corrupt energies in the first place. I see Koldunic Sorcery elsewhere as an alternate methodology of Blood Sorcery using it's own distinct outlook on the world and no more or less corrupt than any other Thaumaturgical practice.

Could one just plop a Ventrue down there and be done with it? Sure, but if the Ventrue are not generally native in the region why not have a Tzimisce bloodline fill the niche? While one might argue that full clans need to be unique in some significant manner, I don't see why bloodlines need to be held to the same strict standard. I tend to see them as a evolutionary process, if you will, filling the niches left open in their areas. Sometimes a niche is filled by a species that is very similar to another one elsewhere simply because it is a model that works. Old Clan Tzimisce, as a blend of Ventrue and Tzimisce are a satisfactory divergence for their home region. That's not to say that their childer couldn't branch out over the years though. I'd argue the demands put on them by their curse would encourage them to travel on occasion just to spread their influence and not stagnate too much in one small region. They can embrace while on such a journey to increase their influence in the area, spreading the Old Clan into a new region and melding that region's cultural distinctiveness to the bloodline's own. It can be a creative challenge to show that melding of behaviors.

So, yeah. I dump the Vicissitude as umbral disease/possession idea and go with the infestation of the Eldest interpretation. I make the Old Clan masters of Koldunic Sorcery and opposed to Vicissitude. I see them as cultured yet somewhat bestial in the same vein as depictions of Dracula. That's what works for me, anyway. If it works for Mav too, or he has a different idea in mind, cool.

[pascale]

Well, though blunt, I am trying to help Mav. I've given plenty of suggestions he can take into considerations for his revised WoD.

I do question the wisdom of making such a limited concept (contextually and geographically) a full-fledged clan. The Old Clan's appeal and place is very much in opposition to and in relation with the main clan. They work almost exclusively as a plot element within stories that revolve around the Main clan and its relations to it, and I think that's a problem: they don't stand on their own.

Mav did ask me about these issues, so I answered to the best of my ability. I am insisting he do whatever he wants with the info once he has it.

[Mav]

Bebop Cola, on 12 September 2009 - 07:24 AM, said:

So, yeah. I dump the Vicissitude as umbral disease/possession idea and go with the infestation of the Eldest interpretation. I make the Old Clan masters of Koldunic Sorcery and opposed to Vicissitude. I see them as cultured yet somewhat bestial in the same vein as depictions of Dracula. That's what works for me, anyway. If it works for Mav too, or he has a different idea in mind, cool.

Thats what I had in mind alright.