[hangedman1984]

How exactly could a nephandi be redeemed? What could possibly bring them back from having their avatar twistedand turned inside out? Can they really be saved?

[Deimos_Masque]

Guilgul and a quick death is the best thing you could do for a Nephandi

Although there is one sig character who is a redeemed Nephandi the rest of the books suggest that it's totally impossible to save one after they've gone through the Cull

[Nero Craft]

I was just reading the section that talks about this in the Revised ST handbook. What I got from it is that the corrupted Mage is pretty much done. But there is a chance the Avatar can be saved. However, the longer the corrupted mage lives, the less of a chance the Avatar can be saved.

I don't think it would be very common for this to happen. But if it does, it should be one of the central themes of the Story.

[Jardel]

The way I understood it is a Mage who has undergone the full initiatiion is fundamentally changed forever, so it all depends on your classification of "redemption".

If by reedeming them you mean can they be turned away from the dark powers and become regular mages... yes, provided they haven't literally sold their souls, become puppets, etc. It's possible.

If by redeeming them you mean transform them back into their old selves. No. Their lives before their Fall are nothing more than a memory to them, like a veteran who has a breakdown they can't be like that anymore.

[Fang Tsu]

I found one set of notes on this hidden in one book. In the Book of Lost Paths there is atleast one Ali-Batin who knows a Kabbalistic ritual (which means some Hermetics probably know it too) which can save/redeem a soul when the body dies. Seemed to require mastery of Spirit and I'd guess a heavy amount of Prime and Entropy as well to remove all the effects of going through a Caul. Of course, Likely if this was done one anyone still alive having their soul messed around with twice would utterly destroy their mind so it's really better that they are dead for the process.

And of course there's a great chance that a creative archmaster of Spirit could do the same thing, perhaps one skilled in mind could even succeed on a living Nephandus without utterly destroying him/her...

[Jagash]

Begs the question; What would happen if a nephandi went back through the cauls? Can you invert the avatar and bring it back to normalacy even in theory?

[agasha kumiko]

Begs the question; What would happen if a nephandi went back through the cauls?  Can you invert the avatar and bring it back to normalacy even in theory?

That is far too twisted to contemplate. I would say no given the reasons in the above posts, but it would make a great myth for the game, yes?

[Jagash]

Granted, they would probably be completely freeking insane at that point....

[sandchigger]

Yeah, because one trip through makes you completely twisted and evil, another'll cure ya right up! Erm... no, you'll likely die. Or have your soul eaten. Or become some spikey-penised demons butt boy. If you're lucky. If you're very lucky.

[Jagash]

Well, technically it just inverts the avatar like switching its polarity. Its mostly one hell of an interesting story hook, including deciding about Winderstainte whom go through the Cauls.

[Nicholas]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility to bring a Nephandi back to exactly how she was before her avatar was twisted. Shouldn't it be possible to do with high level Time/Prime/Spirit magick? I mean, if the mage was uncorrupted at one point in the past, I think it would be possible to return that Mage to his previous state.

True, Time is perhaps the most difficult sphere to work with... but nobody said bringing back a Nephandi would be easy.

This post has been edited by Nicholas: 02 January 2006 - 05:40 AM

[zenten]

Well, technically it just inverts the avatar like switching its polarity. Its mostly one hell of an interesting story hook, including deciding about Winderstainte whom go through the Cauls.

Unless it's like some quantum particles, where two half rotations don't take you back to where you started.

[Jagash]

Then that just brings you to the equally interesting question of what a double-nephandi is.

[Jardel]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility to bring a Nephandi back to exactly how she was before her avatar was twisted.  Shouldn't it be possible to do with high level Time/Prime/Spirit magick?  I mean, if the mage was uncorrupted at one point in the past, I think it would be possible to return that Mage to his previous state.

True, Time is perhaps the most difficult sphere to work with... but nobody said bringing back a Nephandi would be easy.

I'd say you'd need high Mind too. Well, that always begs the question of whether you're really redeeming them or recreating them?

After all if you take them back before the became a Nephandi they have none of the experience, none of the insight from their experience and are also just as susceptible to seduction to the dark side again.

That and of course, the difficulty of dealing with whatever precautions the Caul has set up as a failsafe.

[Jos]

Of course it SHOULD be possible to redeem a nephandus through the use of spheres - just like it SHOULD be possible to redeem a vampire through the use of spheres, if only because nothing should be entirely impossible. That doesn't mean any disciple should be able to do it - it should be hard as h*ll (fully as hard as the suggested sphere-requirements for turning a vampire back to a mortal in Storytellers Handbook) in addition to the precautions taken by whatever powers lurk behind the Caul.

[Nero Craft]

I could see the Nephandi setting up a fallen mage tar baby. They send out an agent who acts like they wants to be redeemed or saved. Another agent starts planting references and rumors to an ancient ritual that will forever clence the soul/avatar. They go on the quest to find this ritual, only to have it be a giant trap to capture and corrupt mages.

[Creeper]

I vote for Jos. Even if it might theoretically get done, you'd need more successes than God. Not to mention you'd probably have the subject fighting you every step of the way. Not to mention once you start to have any effect at all you stand to have anything from al-Aswad and upwards land on you like a pyramid gobbled together from cyclopean bricks.


As to the Caul double-jump theory: weren't said membranes presumably part of the... THE that the Nephandi serve/worship/are enslaved to/are becoming? If yes, why should trying to mess around in them result in anything but being eaten and left to be digested somewhere far, far beyond the Horizon? What self-respecting evil Cthulhoid brain-breaking blasphemy (that bothers to taint, disembowel and re-organize Avatars to begin with) would just sit and let rules-lawyering like that go on in its... err, parts?

[Annael]

Cauls don't switch the polarity. They recreate the Nephandus in the image of the...Thing that the Caul comes from. Think of it like a huge perverted Cthulhu-womb.

It's mentioned in one of the books that Widderslainte quite enjoy going into the Caul again. It's like a refreshing wake-up call or something. I don't know what it might do mechanically. The books don't say. But I suppose it might be considered a Willpower-rejuvenating reward, or maybe a method of Nephandic Seeking.

I saw that in the Book of Lost Paths. There's also some hinting tidbits about redemption in the Revised Book of Madness. For my part, I say that even *if* some method of cleansing the taint from the Nephandic soul/Avatar can be found, the Nephandus has to be *willing.* The way I've always interpreted the books is that by the time the Nephandus steps out of the Caul, he has been brought face-to-face with the choice he's making (and presumably has indeed chosen to become Nephandi, since the Caul didn't just tear him to bits and crush him into paste). He must decide in full consciousness whether this is what he wants to be. Note that he isn't necessarily *sane,* but that the decision is an informed one. To me, it's more about the soul than about the Avatar, despite the part the Avatar plays. You can't save someone else's soul for them; you can only provide the tools.

As a final note, my ST actually did this, redeeming a Nephandus NPC. My mage played a large role in this, and admittedly it's what my character was going for (having fallen in love with the Nephandus and all), but even so I don't really understand what happened. I suspect that the Nephandus returned the sentiment (I'm not sure because no one ever could trust what that NPC put forth), cared about someone else enough to throw over that 'destroy everything' idea, and thus chose not to continue serving Oblivion. The NPC never did turn into a nice guy. He remained one of the villains, but somewhere along the way his motivations definitely changed and he did evince a soft spot for my mage a few times.

Anyway, I've never gotten around to asking my ST how he figured that worked, though knowing him, I'm sure he has a solid explanation. He did say once that he could think of about three ways to do it, though each one would be specific to an individual and dependent on the circumstances playing out right.

[tomewilson]

I mean, if the mage was uncorrupted at one point in the past, I think it would be possible to return that Mage to his previous state.

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The problem is, the Avatar transcends time. It's only your mortal body's connection to it's Avatar through gnosis that changes.

[Lawar Yeneth]

Maybe if you asked nicely, the Avatar would agree to not trancend time for the duration of the spell?