[OffWhite Knight]

There's a thread over on the Requiem side regarding the Circle of the Crone and what it is and so on. In it, I mention there are some LARPers in the new game I'm starting in that are pagans and that's why they play the CotC.

How common is this in your experience? How much of this should be a part of gaming and LARPing in particular? It seems to me that these people, some of them otherwise fine people, bring too many modern mortal ideas with them. Organized religion is bad, pagan is good. Lancea Sanctum is jack booted thugs, Circle of the Crone are just undead pagans at one with nature! My character doesn't like the church because, well, I don't like the church.

I know it can't be stopped. I know it's not always a bad thing. I know not every character can be a stretch for the player, or that staying in a comfort zone is always bad. But is this perhaps taking things too far? Or is this simply a misunderstanding of two of the covenants within the game?

As an aside, I'm playing a zealous Priest of Longinus. In real life, I'm a self-proclaimed agnostic. If I typecast myself, I'd probably go Ordo Dracul or even Carthian.

I curious, as my previous LARPing experience didn't really allow for this sort of thing.

[DGG]

How common is this in your experience? 

Very common actually, but mostly among newbies. It isn't restricted to religious beliefs but preconceived notions too. Take an avid Anne Rice fan and introduce her to VtM or VtR and what do you think is going to happen?

Worst case scenario was a Jewish friend of mine who wanted to create a "Jewish" vampire whose life-long mission was to find and kill all surviving Nazis. Now I wasn't totally against the concept...It's just that it was a bit beyond the scope of the chronicle I was about to run.

That's just it. I have nothing against bringing real world beliefs into the game if it can help a player identify with his character but there are some instances where it goes a bit too far...

Hence, one of my favorite ST/GM argument enders;

"It may be that way in the real world, but it isn't like that in MY world."

[Glacialis]

Firstly, I'll say it can be stopped by the ST before it starts.

Now, would you? Several reasons for allowing more personal beliefs into a game, several reasons against.

Against:

- If a player's personal beliefs figure heavily in the game, they will take it personally. This is bad.

- It's almost always, though not universally, those claiming to be of the "pagan" religion espousing hatred for "christianity". This will cause player conflict. Conflict is plot, but only when it's between characters. Between players, it's called drama, and is the BANE OF ALL LARPS EVERYWHERE!!!1!!oneone

- Bringing a player's personal beliefs into game will cause them to overshadow their character's beliefs.

- It takes real maturity to explore sensitive or R-rated issues and enjoy them through your character. Unfortunately, while you can check someone's driver's license, you can't ask their brain to produce papers.

For:

- A player's specialized knowledge can enrich the gaming experience for all, and shore up a Narrator or ST's lack of knowledge in an area. Provided the staff in question are alright with the assistance, of course.

- Exploring concepts and issues that we as human beings are intrigued by and interested in can only enhance the game. However, these explorations should be tempered both by the setting itself and the overarching goal of playing someone who is not a supernaturally-empowered representation of the player.


I had more, but it's 24 minutes to the time of going home.

[jadedeath]

Yeah it happens fairly often...

one could even expand this into saying that some players view the Carthian Movement as "the good guys" TM.

I'm not a big fan of Religion myself... but my next character is going to be a Lancea and I love the idea...

Alot of the players that I've come across don't quite seem to grasp that they're playing characters in a GAME... Even though I've never been to a Catholic chuch I've had characters go into them because Catholicism was what my CHARACTER followed... it won't give me cooties because I'm playing a religious character... {plus the Lancea Characters are DAMN spooky and powerful when you get to higher levels of Thebian}

As to the Circle... I'm going to wait until the book comes out and check it out as I don't think that WW really did that good of a job convincing people that they're not just fluffy bunny hugging forest dwellers... I think it's common sense to assume they're not... but some players see the word "pagan" and automatically assume that's the case...

Logan

[Kuroukaze]

"I'm Pagan and I lurve da bunnies! They so kewwwwwt!"

Gods, I hate it when people assume that about me because I'm a Druid. I usually say that the Druidic culture wasn't known to practice true human sacrifice, but I might be persuaded to make a special exeption in their case. For the bunnies, of course.

I think a lot of the problems with this is that most 'normal' people have trouble operating outside of what they think is right, mostly because they arn't sure if it's rigth or not, and in a game like the WoD these views are directly challanged, not on the front side in the fiery dynamic way but on the back side through highlighting the rot and corruption within. This makes a lot of people uncomfortable, so they stick to their guns. Play the 'good guys' as it were.

[jadedeath]

"I'm Pagan and I lurve da bunnies! They so kewwwwwt!"

I automatically thought of Jay and Silent Bob when you said that... *LOL*

Gods, I hate it when people assume that about me because I'm a Druid. I usually say that the Druidic culture wasn't known to practice true human sacrifice, but I might be persuaded to make a special exeption in their case. For the bunnies, of course.

I think a lot of the problems with this is that most 'normal' people have trouble operating outside of what they think is right, mostly because they arn't sure if it's rigth or not, and in a game like the WoD these views are directly challanged, not on the front side in the fiery dynamic way but on the back side through highlighting the rot and corruption within. This makes a lot of people uncomfortable, so they stick to their guns. Play the 'good guys' as it were.

Honestly I'd argue with the players that the Lancea ARE the good guys... they're fighting for god {and Longinus} and accepting who they are... *LOL*

The Carthians and Invictus are just trying to lord over people {as DIPLOMATIC as the Carthians CAN anyway...} and the Ordo Dracul are just studying stuff... but the Lancea have a GOAL that vampires can accept and learn from...

they never really like it when I say that...

And I'm strangely curious about your signature... is that Astra the alternative model?

Logan

[Glacialis]

I think that's Astra on the boards here.

Y'know, in high school I did a paper on the druids, what was known about them in 1995 and all. According to the information I had then and what I've been able to find since, their culture did indeed perform sacrifices. Being the priests, I don't think there was a single sacrifice that wasn't witnessed or officiated by these celtic priests. The Romans put a stop to it as it wasn't something they liked and all that.

Is that information totally bunk? http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/ is one of the best collections in plain english regarding historical druids. Modern druidic faiths are a tad different, but from what I can tell, still in the spirit of.


Now, think about your reactions to what I just typed. Those of my personal beliefs, based off of a historical interest in celtic gaul. What's your first reaction? I don't know if I've hit a nerve or not, I sincerely hope I didn't, but as much as I consider that an opening to discuss historic celtic culture, some people would take that as an attack on their beliefs.

That's OOC conflict.

Let's say the game had a plot going that related in some way to the ancient celts. In a Requiem game, this is likely to involve the Circle, while an Acanthos in Awakening could easily explore the same concepts. If the ST runs the plot that involves what you believe to be a twisting or misinterpretation of druidic traditions, how would you react? Could you understand that regardless of what the ST believes, this is a game and any twisting is probably the result of the corruption inherent in the World of Darkness? The ST hates your faith? The ST is targeting you, personally?

In exploring anything requiring belief, from druidic traditions to Lilith cults to Gnostics to the darker secrets of the Catholic church to Hitler's obsession with the occult, there are a billion ideas ready to be exploited and brought into game. Why are they so popular? Because they're powerful. Belief systems are what they are because they evoke a powerful response, and bringing those into a roleplaying game is always going to generate some sort of response.

One would hope that people wouldn't be so thin-skinned as to freak out at any mention of religion, but they do exist. Those sorts of people don't usually last long in a WoD game.

[zenten]

It depends on the person. If they can't understand the difference between fiction and reality, it can go very bad. And I don't just mean thinking something fictional is real, the reverse can really spoil a game too. And if someone is having trouble with that I would ask them to play something that they don't have as much real world belief in.

[Glacialis]

To add to this topic, a link to one of the better webzines dedicated to covering video games. Specifically, religion and video games.

http://www.escapistm... com/issue/29/19

It's more about the martyr theme, in Christianity specifically, but it's still an interesting read.

[OffWhite Knight]

Hmmm...apparently a thread that us MET folks find interesting.

Good thoughts. Some I hadn't even really considered.

To extend it:

Should I chalk it up to of of the two following things?

1) I'm a pagan and I never got to play one in a game before, at least not where it wasn't just a part of their background. Now I can play one and it's an important part of the PC and the game! Yeah!

2) I'm a pagan and I've played VtM for years upon end. I'm not really comfortable with the new setting, so I'm going to go with something I do know.

And it must be said, the people I've noticed are experienced gamers and LARPers. Maybe not good gamers or LARPers, but experienced. That's partially what's bugging me about all this.

[Glacialis]

If we're using the meaning of "pagan" as in the thread I started up over in the Void, then we just got a bit more complicated.

Experienced vs. good, you said it yourself. They are NOT the same thing.

1 -- If the ST and the player can work out what parts of the player's beliefs are relevant to the CoC in the St's game, this can work beautifully.

2 -- A valid response, but should still be worked into the ST's vision of the CoC.

Once the Circle's covenant book comes out, there should be a lot more solid footing under both ST and player, a common ground that evenif deviated from at least provides a better starting point than VtR core.

Additionally,

3) I'm not a pagan, but the cultures and beliefs are very interesting to me.
-- This is me.

4) I'm a pagan, but I don't want it to influence my character much.
-- You'd never know what this person's beliefs were unless you discovered them outside of game. Know a few people like this, they don't like to get into religious discussions. A very private thing for them.

[DGG]

And to add to all this difficulty...

The CoC book is NOT out yet.

I had a similar problem with a player playing the Invictus. We were working a lot one what we think is appropriate for the game. It was only after the book came out that we both went "Ah! So that's how it works!"

My own recommendation; play down story threads that are directly related to the covenant. This way both you and the ST can form a foundation without going into all the nit-picky details just yet.

[jadedeath]

My own recommendation; play down story threads that are directly related to the covenant. This way both you and the ST can form a foundation without going into all the nit-picky details just yet.

Ordinarily I'd say that's a good idea... perhaps with Table top that could work... but I'd have to say that it'd be hard to do that if you want to allow ANY characters at all for a LARP from the CotC...

The game that I'm playing in now doesn't allow any Circle Members 1} because it's Toronto and the Circle wouldn't have much of a presence here... and 2} they're so much of an unknown right now... noone knows if they're playing it right or wrong... or if they way they're playing it will be contradicted when the book comes out...

I know there's no "right" way to play it... but what they print in the book might make a bit more sense than the way you're playing it... then you're kinda buggered... you'd have to either switch things so that from now on that's the way we're playing... or change a few things in retrospect...

just MHO

Logan

[krazlica]

Druids did indeed practice human sacrifice, and as, well, a paleo-pagan myself, I do indeed think it should be brought back. I know most of you are going to think I'm a)pyschotic or b)so little goth kid trying to talk big, but hey, its teh internets, and thems the apples.

I should point out that I'm not planning on actively doing this myself. The proper cultural atmosphere is no longer existant, but boy does it make my blood boil when things like the aztec temple of the sun are reopened and they have full knowledge they won't fulfill the old ways. Better to leave well enough alone than to tempt fate with rituals that only mock and desecrate.

That being said I, being a man of deep faith, often play heavily religious characters. It most certainly does not have to be my faith however. I've played catholics, sufi's, buddhists of several creeds, I've even played a quaker pacifist and thats about as far from me as you could get. I tried playing an atheist and it took me a bit to realize that the atheist is self-sufficient, and just doesn't think of god outside of debate. To ritually rail against non-existant deities is pretty silly, and it took awhile for me to realize that so I could do them justice.

[Glacialis]

See, that's awesome. That kind of ability to adapt your mindset to other viewpoints, religious or not, makes for great roleplaying. For a person of religious faith to truly play the modern atheist, that's got to be a large leap.

And now, I leave to make tea.

[Dolston]

Jumping in late here...

I think it is important that you bring parts of your experieces as a playerinto your character. It is what gives you familiarity and a relationship with that character so you can portray it to your fellow LARPers.

The thing to remember is that game is fantasy and reality is not the game. It seems pretty obvious but many people do not accept this. Things work differently in the game world from the real world. A players PhD means nothing if that knowlege, when brought into the fantasy, ruins the fantasy. This doesn't mean you can just throw things out of the fantasy at a whim because reality is not convient but that the consistencies in the game-world does not match the real-world. As long as the player understands and accepts this bringing in some aspects and some knowledges from the real-world player via the game-world character can be a very good thing.