[Temple]

So, I've been thinking about larps. I normally loathe larps. I can't describe it, but theres something about the thought of actually dressing up and pretending to be your character together with a bunch of people who are also dressed up and pretending to be their characters that is a bit. Well, it just makes my skin crawl.
I mean, sitting around a table with a binch of boks and sheets of paper with dots on them, talking and rolling the occasional handful of dice is one thing, but I have never been quite comfortable with the idea of larp'ing.
Which is odd, considering that I am studying drama and have been an amateur stage actor for several years.. Go figure..

But this thread is not about my gripes with larps, nor my struggle to accept them. Thats material for a different thread, or possibly a blog (a homepage, even..).

This thread is purely materialistic in nature: What MET books, both nWoD and oWoD (I play both, silly little man that I am) are worth picking up? I've heard some are utter crap, while others are considered gems.
Help..?

Also, on a related note: Whats the deal with the Camarilla? Are all MET groups registered? I understand you don't have to register (I mean, who's gonna stop me from larping, right?), but I get the feeling sanctioned play is the norm on a global level. That means getting in touch with the local Cam (not exactly a problem, as I am moving to a larger city within 6 months), applying for approval on various stuff (since it's all trechnicaly official, atleast for the nWoD, I don't know if they support oWoD anymore) and generally having lots of ass-related pain.

So, how does the Camarilla\larp relationship actually work? I never understood that..

[OffWhite Knight]

For NWOD, that's hard to answer, as there are only the two books, the core and the requiem.

Both books simply reprint a whole lot of what is in the table top versions of the game. But they also contain new information that is mandatory and necessary for the new MET. Like how Status is handled in Requiem and the whole new card system.

If you are only playing in a LARP, they aren't necessary, unless you are going to ascend to power and want to really play the game and even metagame. Running one, they are mandatory.

Probably not useful, but hey, there aren't any other books yet!

[Dolston]

For NWOD, I would say the only manadatory book is the NWOD Corebook. Requiem, really isn't useful unless you are playing in the Camarilla.

For OWOD the most common game played is Vampire so LotN Rev would be useful. As far as I am concerned the single best OWOD MET book was Laws of the Reckoning. It is clean and chocked full of nifty things. Beyond these two books, I would really depend on what you are doing. Faith & Fire and MET's Vampire by Gaslight are good, strong books too but are more setting specific.

The other books necessity will vary on what you want out of the game and what you are wanting to do with the game. Quality ranges from average to scary-bad organization.

[zenten]

Ok, purely subjective opinion on what books I think are good.

OWoD: Laws of the Night, Hunter the Reconing, Changeling Players Guide (it's rather well written, unfortunatly, I can't say the same for the core, although what do you expect from a 17 year old that hasn't done anything professional before), Mage and the Mage players guide.

As to the new, only the core, requirem (the larp book, as opposed to the tabletop) is crap imho (although required if you want to play in the Cam).

As to sanctioned games verses regular, it depends on what's good in your area. If you can find a good game to play in, it won't matter either way, and if you can't, then it still doesn't matter. There's a difference if you're planning on running one, but that's not something I'd recomend if you arn't really into larping.

[jadedeath]

As to the new, only the core, requirem (the larp book, as opposed to the tabletop) is crap imho (although required if you want to play in the Cam).

the Larp book for Requiem is practically the exact same as the Table Top book... the differences are a minor explanation about the how the challenges work... {fingers, one dice or cards} that's pretty much the only difference I can see....

they really should have just added 10 pages or so to the TT book to explain what the differences would be instead of trying to grab as much cash as they could out of their players...

just MHO of course...

Logan

[zenten]

the Larp book for Requiem is practically the exact same as the Table Top book... the differences are a minor explanation about the how the challenges work... {fingers, one dice or cards} that's pretty much the only difference I can see....

No, they added really dumb status rules too.

[BlU_sKrEEm]

I'll have to agree with the Shining Host Player's Guide, although I love the Shining Host, so maybe I'm not the best source. Laws of the Wyld West is great just for hilarity. Well written, but seriously, your playing Cowboys and Indians and Werewolves, literally. I just can't not chuckle every time I see it in my collection.

[jadedeath]

No, they added really dumb status rules too.

oh yeah... those... I generally ignore those and make different rules with regards to dealing with status...

but still it wouldn't have been more than 10 {or so} pages in the main rules... hack out the New Orleans stuff and save it for the City book and add in the differences for running a LARP campaign...

Logan

[Dolston]

Also, on a related note: Whats the deal with the Camarilla? Are all MET groups registered? I understand you don't have to register (I mean, who's gonna stop me from larping, right?), but I get the feeling sanctioned play is the norm on a global level. That means getting in touch with the local Cam (not exactly a problem, as I am moving to a larger city within 6 months), applying for approval on various stuff (since it's all trechnicaly official, atleast for the nWoD, I don't know if they support oWoD anymore) and generally having lots of ass-related pain.

So, how does the Camarilla\larp relationship actually work? I never understood that..

The Camarilla is White Wolf's official fan club. One of the main things they do is run a global chronicle where, literally, thousands of games share one continuity and create a real World of Darkness. If there is a game in Washington, DC and you character needs to contact someone in DC you can actualy communicate with another player on the opposite side of the world.

The trade off is chronicle sovereignty. Since there is a large number of games playing at once there are a number of rules and regulations present to ensure things work well.

It is not necessarily better gaming or the norm. I have never played in a Camarilla sanctioned game but I know people who have who have loved it. Of course, there are those that hate it. Your best bet would be to contact the Camarilla - there are links for them off of www.white-wolf.com - to get the information so you can make your own decisions instead o relying on hearsay.

If you care about my opinion, I personally know the Msater ST for Canada and he is a good guy and a very good ST. Alex, the developer for MET and head of the Camarilla world wide, seems to have a good head on his shoulders. As will Strider1976 who is a lurker and occasional poster here is someone I trust quite a bit and speaks well of his experiences with the Cam. He is actually applying (applied?) for a national position in the US las time I was speaking with him.

[OffWhite Knight]

1) why is the Requiem book pretty much only required for Camarilla games?

2) why are the Requiem status rules "dumb?" They make sense to me. They seem to offer incentives for role-playing well (as opposed to hiding in a corner that is). They seem to really drive the game in a political way. Is it the advantages of acendant/eminent? Why?

[Dolston]

1) why is the Requiem book pretty much only required for Camarilla games?

2) why are the Requiem status rules "dumb?"  They make sense to me.  They seem to offer incentives for role-playing well (as opposed to hiding in a corner that is).  They seem to really drive the game in a political way.  Is it the advantages of acendant/eminent?  Why?

Because the rules as written only work for networked games or huge independent games. This is especially true for the Covenant status rules. Also, the Ascendent/Emminent rules cause great, earth shattering changes to how to world actually works without any explanation as to why or how such a change comes about.

You also have the "One True City" set up again with little to no thought or advice on how to run a city structure other than the one they give you.

Then there is the massive change from TT to MET where travel is now common and acceptable. This is dictated by the need to have contact with outside cities to make Covenant status work which, of course, is a massive change from "cities are islands" concept that was introduced in Requiem TT which was the single best idea that came out of the relauched vampire.

If you want to play Vampire the Requiem use the NWOD MET book and the TT Requiem Book. You will get a better game. Of course, the better option would be not to play Requiem and play NWOD mortals.

[strider1276]

The Camarilla is White Wolf's official fan club. One of the main things they do is run a global chronicle where, literally, thousands of games share one continuity and create a real World of Darkness. If there is a game in Washington, DC and you character needs to contact someone in DC you can actualy communicate with another player on the opposite side of the world.

The trade off is chronicle sovereignty. Since there is a large number of games playing at once there are a number of rules and regulations present to ensure things work well.

It is not necessarily better gaming or the norm. I have never played in a Camarilla sanctioned game but I know people who have who have loved it. Of course, there are those that hate it. Your best bet would be to contact the Camarilla - there are links for them off of www.white-wolf.com - to get the information so you can make your own decisions instead o relying on hearsay.

If you care about my opinion, I personally know the Msater ST for Canada and he is a good guy and a very good ST. Alex, the developer for MET and head of the Camarilla world wide, seems to have a good head on his shoulders. As will Strider1976 who is a lurker and occasional poster here is someone I trust quite a bit and speaks well of his experiences with the Cam. He is actually applying (applied?) for a national position in the US las time I was speaking with him.

A few things:

1. It's strider1276 - the numbers represent my birthday (kind of), and last I checked, there was no 19th month. Unless, of course, you wacky Canadians added 7 months? ;-)

2. I actually applied for a Global position - specifically, AAMST Settings: Forsaken. What that basically means is that I would have been, effectively, *the* Forsaken ST on a global level. I didn't get it, but only barely, according to the gentleman that would have been my superior. I have since applied for a GSA (Global Storytelling Authority) position, which is effectively the same, but more focused. For Forsaken, there are GSA Metaplot/Plot (Legacy), which is the AAMST's right-hand guy, GSA Antagonists, GSA Lodges/Tribes, GSA Shadow Realm/Dark Places on the Map, and GSA Fetish, Gifts and Rites. Each one handles a smaller sub-section of the venue on a global scale. I'm actually putting in apps for each one - we'll see what I get. :-)

3. I'm currently an Assistant Regional Storyteller - meaning that I have Storytelling authority in the Forsaken venue over an entire Region (8 states in this particular region). I'm actually finding it quite enjoyable, and I'll be running the Forsaken game at our Regional Convention in April. Hopefully I won't die.

As for the Cam in general...I used to be a *big* Cam hater. I hated the MC/Prestige system (still do in some ways), I hated no Chronicle Sovereignty, and other things. However, I've made a certain degree of peace with the MC system, as I can't come up with something better yet, and there's actually more Chronicle Sovereignty than so-called "outsiders" might think. I know that as a Forsaken ST, I try to allow the VST's in my region to have as open a field as possible. There are some things that are right out (for instance, a VST can't have the Deep attack, by way of extreme example), but largely in the Forsaken venue, most things are Low Approval - meaning a local ST can approve them for your character. The only things I can think of that are higher Approval are Bale Hounds, Hosts other than the Azlu or Beshilu, level 4+ Spirits, and level 4+ Fetishes. Oh, and the named monstrosities from Predators (the Mother, the Deep, the Flesh, etc). Other than that, Forsaken is a pretty open book, which I really like. The Requiem venue has a lot of different approval levels for things, which makes me glad I'm not in that ST chain. :-)

It's likely that will change for the Forsaken venue in the near future, as Lodges: the Faithful gets Sanctioned for play. There are a number of Lodges in there that I would imagine should be a higher approval.

As for players...I've been happy so far. I've played with mostly really good players. On occasion I deal with someone who isn't so great, and I've come across one particularly bad player, but largely it's been fine. I would say that the Cam (as a whole) is really one big law of averages...sooner or later, you'll hit the bad player. Hopefully they're not all bunched up in your neck of the woods.

strider

[Cerridwin]

I'll have to agree with the Shining Host Player's Guide, although I love the Shining Host, so maybe I'm not the best source. Laws of the Wyld West is great just for hilarity. Well written, but seriously, your playing Cowboys and Indians and Werewolves, literally. I just can't not chuckle every time I see it in my collection.

Done right it is not a laughable situation. We call it Wild West however, the time period is near the turn of the century and there is the possibility of the horseless carriage, electricity, telephone etc. If you know your history the idea of the 'wild west' was quite over by this time period. The challenge is to put yourself into the mindset of one living in this different timeperiod at the blossoming of the technological age.

[jadedeath]

As for the Cam in general...I used to be a *big* Cam hater. I hated the MC/Prestige system (still do in some ways), I hated no Chronicle Sovereignty, and other things. However, I've made a certain degree of peace with the MC system, as I can't come up with something better yet, and there's actually more Chronicle Sovereignty than so-called "outsiders" might think. I know that as a Forsaken ST, I try to allow the VST's in my region to have as open a field as possible. There are some things that are right out (for instance, a VST can't have the Deep attack, by way of extreme example), but largely in the Forsaken venue, most things are Low Approval - meaning a local ST can approve them for your character. The only things I can think of that are higher Approval are Bale Hounds, Hosts other than the Azlu or Beshilu, level 4+ Spirits, and level 4+ Fetishes. Oh, and the named monstrosities from Predators (the Mother, the Deep, the Flesh, etc). Other than that, Forsaken is a pretty open book, which I really like. The Requiem venue has a lot of different approval levels for things, which makes me glad I'm not in that ST chain. :-)

one thing I've always wondered about the Cam... maybe you could help me clear them up in my head as I'm curious and I mean no offence...

why have an MC system?

from what I've heard the MC system is essentially a pay for favor system that revolves around players doing stuff rather unrelated to the game for the ST's or the regional Cam people for an XP type reward... correct me if I'm wrong...

to me that always sounded like "bring chips and pop for everyone at the game and i'll give you XP" or work on website stuff... or whatever...

I think there's also part of that system it determines what you can play within the range of it all... like a rare bloodline... and the closest that I've ever gotten to an explanation of that in my head was that if joe-blow average does favors for the management they get to play extra special things but not the better roleplayer who shows up all the time and just wants to play in the game... {I've seen similar situations happen in non-Cam games and it seems like a similar situation}

I've seen some pretty wacky things though when it comes to XP giving out... like Ottawa {before Dolston and co.} handed out XP on a Bell Curve... and one particular character that I know of got 16 XP in one month... {I shit you not...}

It just makes more sense to me to have a set *BLAM* here's your XP everyone gets this XP no matter what period... unless the players themselves vote that you get a roleplaying bonus then you get 1 extra... that's it that's all...

Logan

This post has been edited by jadedeath: 12 March 2006 - 08:11 AM

[Loremaster]

Advantages of the Camarilla:

1- Conventions. While convention games are not necessarily always good (we’ve seen anything form great games to awful games), they’re big, and form time to time, playing vampire with 150 people is just fun.
2- Richer out-of-city background. When you come from, say. New-York, you don’t just appear out of nowhere. You have an in-game sire. Players may email New-York players to check your references. If you physically moved from New-York to Dallas, for example, you play the exact same character in both games, and your character is a lot more interesting than if he had been created anew for Dallas. He comes with a background, plots, ideas, and you have already mastered his roleplay.
3- National plotlines. When worked out with local storytellers, plotlines brought up by national or regional storyteller can make an interesting break from the all-to-local plots most games I’ve seen go through.
4- Chronicle duration. Usually, chronicles die out after a year or a year and a half. Not because they are bad, but just because the players and storytellers have lived through the chronicle and there isn’t anything more to say. Camarilla chronicles last a lot longer than that.

Inconvenients of the Camarilla:

1- Chronicle Sovereignty. To be honest with you, unless you like regular meetings between Caine and Dracula every week, this is not a big problem. Usually, the Camarilla allows a lot more stuff to happen without high-level approval than I’d approve myself in troupe games. As a rule of thumb, only things that go beyond the domain or that are too strong for a domain to contain need approval from non-local storytellers.
2- Bureaucracy. It’s a bitch at first, but you get used to it in time.
3- OOC politics. Really, sometimes, some people should just shut up and stop doing that. Leave the politics IC. OOC politics is worse in the Camarilla than in troupe games, but by a small margin, usually.
4- Prestige. If you work for the Cam, you’re going to gain prestige points, which grant you Membership class levels. Higher membership class usually means you’ll be more respected within the Camarilla. It also grants you XPs. In the oWOD, it granted you a higher limit on generation, Rank, etc. in addition to XPs, and made a hell of a difference. In the nWOD, they had reduced the benefits to 10 XPs per MC (15MCs total), but they brought it back up a lot, satisfying a great number of members, and really pissing off a great number of members also. The reason behind XP rewards for prestige is that some work for the Camarilla, especially on the coordinator side, is really a bitch. Also, the amount of crap high level officers must contend with if they want to keep the Cam working is often astounding. There must be a compensation for all of this.

MC no longer grant permissions to play special characters. It only influences XPs, and the fact that people will often give more respect to someone who's MC 15 than someone who is MC 2 because he took care of the game site rental and clean-up a few times.

Bottom line: I have never met a single roleplayer who did not hate and spite the Camarilla before trying it. While many players who have tried it have since left, and don’t want to be a part of it anymore, most respect the Camarilla a lot more than the people who have not tried it yet.

So try it before judging. Otherwise, I think I know what your judgment will be, and while I had the same judgment before, I must tell you that it is not as bad as it looks from outside. It took me a year to be able to stand it, but I now occupy 4 titles at the same time for the Camarilla.


Oh yes, in the Camarilla, there are limits on the amount of XPs one may get in a game or in a month. So no one may give 16 XPs for a game. Limit is like, 5 per game and 10 per month, with a max of 3 per month for non-gaming activities like downtime reports and the like.

The Camarilla is regulated to avoid most uselessly big problems, hence the bureaucracy.

[jadedeath]

Advantages of the Camarilla:

1- Conventions. While convention games are not necessarily always good (we’ve seen anything form great games to awful games), they’re big, and form time to time, playing vampire with 150 people is just fun.

couldn't you just do that outside of the Camarilla as well? like the SnE North American gathering for example?

3- National plotlines. When worked out with local storytellers, plotlines brought up by national or regional storyteller can make an interesting break from the all-to-local plots most games I’ve seen go through.

but... that seems to be entirely against the point of Requiem... being a more localized game than Masquerade...

4- Chronicle duration. Usually, chronicles die out after a year or a year and a half. Not because they are bad, but just because the players and storytellers have lived through the chronicle and there isn’t anything more to say. Camarilla chronicles last a lot longer than that.

that depends on the ST...

Inconvenients of the Camarilla:

1- Chronicle Sovereignty. To be honest with you, unless you like regular meetings between Caine and Dracula every week, this is not a big problem. Usually, the Camarilla allows a lot more stuff to happen without high-level approval than I’d approve myself in troupe games. As a rule of thumb, only things that go beyond the domain or that are too strong for a domain to contain need approval from non-local storytellers.

therein lies one of my other problems... like if I want player X to play a Gulikan... I don't want to have to jump through hoops as a ST for the next Month until game time to get an answer from the higher ups... I would like to allow player X to play a Gulikan... {or whatever bloodline}

2- Bureaucracy. It’s a bitch at first, but you get used to it in time.
3- OOC politics. Really, sometimes, some people should just shut up and stop doing that. Leave the politics IC. OOC politics is worse in the Camarilla than in troupe games, but by a small margin, usually.

could be that point 3 is a sub-problem of point 2... or at least feeds into point 3... the more Bureaucracy you have chances are good the more politics you have as well...

4- Prestige. If you work for the Cam, you’re going to gain prestige points, which grant you Membership class levels. Higher membership class usually means you’ll be more respected within the Camarilla. It also grants you XPs. In the oWOD, it granted you a higher limit on generation, Rank, etc. in addition to XPs, and made a hell of a difference. In the nWOD, they had reduced the benefits to 10 XPs per MC (15MCs total), but they brought it back up a lot, satisfying a great number of members, and really pissing off a great number of members also. The reason behind XP rewards for prestige is that some work for the Camarilla, especially on the coordinator side, is really a bitch. Also, the amount of crap high level officers must contend with if they want to keep the Cam working is often astounding. There must be a compensation for all of this.

as much as I loathe to do it... I will quote from Star Wars Episode 1 with regards to your last line "mind tricks don't work on me... only money"

As for the coordinator side of things the only coordination that I see outside of regular game stuff is the regional stuff which is entirely unnecessary given than Requiem is supposed to be focused on certain areas... for example Vampires in Vancouver really shouldn't care what's going on in New York, Dallas or L.A. there was supposed to be no over-reaching Camarilla/Sabbat style politics...

maybe I'm just set in my ways but I really hate a "you set up the game site for the game here's some XP" style of running things... as that should be a part of any game... you need a place to play and you ask the players if they know of an area... it's part of setting up a game... your players should help you out in that regard otherwise there is no game...

MC no longer grant permissions to play special characters. It only influences XPs, and the fact that people will often give more respect to someone who's MC 15 than someone who is MC 2 because he took care of the game site rental and clean-up a few times.

you get MC 15 because you take care of game site rental and clean-up? shouldn't you get some of the Camarilla money that you gave into the fan-club for game site rental?

Bottom line: I have never met a single roleplayer who did not hate and spite the Camarilla before trying it. While many players who have tried it have since left, and don’t want to be a part of it anymore, most respect the Camarilla a lot more than the people who have not tried it yet.

So try it before judging. Otherwise, I think I know what your judgment will be, and while I had the same judgment before, I must tell you that it is not as bad as it looks from outside. It took me a year to be able to stand it, but I now occupy 4 titles at the same time for the Camarilla.
Oh yes, in the Camarilla, there are limits on the amount of XPs one may get in a game or in a month. So no one may give 16 XPs for a game. Limit is like, 5 per game and 10 per month, with a max of 3 per month for non-gaming activities like downtime reports and the like.

in addition to what you have for MC yes? so it won't really matter if you get a max of 10 XP per month {usually I'd cap it at around 5 myself but that's probably just me} when you already have a character that has 150 XP from the get-go...

I'd much prefer a system where you'd see a bit more than XP for your troubles... like say if you pay in "x" ammount per year and everyone ends up with a set of the main rules at the end of that year I'd much rather see a system like that...

The Camarilla is regulated to avoid most uselessly big problems, hence the bureaucracy.

I can see it avoiding some problems like "my character is from New York and he doesn't know your character who is also from New York" but I mean no offence it looks like it causes more problems than it fixes...

Logan

[strider1276]

but... that seems to be entirely against the point of Requiem... being a more localized game than Masquerade...

And, as written in the TT book, it is. The MET book is a bit more "forgiving" in this aspect, but the bottom line remains that, to some extent, for the Camarilla's Global Chronicle to work, we have to loosen the venue a bit in regards to travelling.

And if you think Requiem's bad....try Forsaken. That one's *not* terribly LARP friendly. *sigh*

therein lies one of my other problems... like if I want player X to play a Gulikan... I don't want to have to jump through hoops as a ST for the next Month until game time to get an answer from the higher ups... I would like to allow player X to play a Gulikan... {or whatever bloodline}

Well, it's a way to reasonably enforce rarity. If three domains within, say, 2 hours' drive of one another at the most, all having 15 players, each allows 2 or 3 of [Bloodline X], then they cease to really be rare - at least, in that part of the world. Or you need to come up with a reason why so many of [Bloodline X] are hanging out there. The higher-level ST's "see" more than the local ST's, and act to regulate such things. Of course, it's also for those people that want to play Bloodline X, but with little to no explanation of *why* - they get weeded out fairly quickly. Also, the approvals system allows people to get things they otherwise wouldn't be able to have due to their local ST not having jurisdiction in that area. Yes, I know that's not a problem in an Indy game.

maybe I'm just set in my ways but I really hate a "you set up the game site for the game here's some XP" style of running things... as that should be a part of any game... you need a place to play and you ask the players if they know of an area... it's part of setting up a game... your players should help you out in that regard otherwise there is no game...

Agreed, really. I don't like that, either, in theory. On the other hand, you get such a small amount of prestige (no more than 5) for doing so that it really doesn't matter, and many people that I know don't even bother to claim it. Especially at the higher MC levels, 5 Prestige is really nothing to worry about, either way.

you get MC 15 because you take care of game site rental and clean-up? shouldn't you get some of the Camarilla money that you gave into the fan-club for game site rental?

I think you're reading his statement backwards (don't worry - I did too at first!) - I believe he means the MC 2 person who has *only* done clean up and such, versus the MC 15 person who has done a lot, *lot* more.

in addition to what you have for MC yes? so it won't really matter if you get a max of 10 XP per month {usually I'd cap it at around 5 myself but that's probably just me} when you already have a character that has 150 XP from the get-go...

Well, the XP scale for MC is this: MC x 20 + 30. So, for me, at MC 6, if I make a new Primary character, I add (6 x 20 + 30), or 150 XP. Those above me put more - for instance, an MC 15 character gets 330 XP.

The reason for this? So that there is an automatic stratification ICly. So we had powerful characters at chronicle start - those stronger than others, some weaker than others...that sort of thing. The higher your MC, the more you are expected to take on some leadership qualities (whether an officer or not), involve newer players, etc. You get some extra XP on your sheet to help accomplish this without someone else that's had their character in play for a while (in the case that your previous character died in game) squishing you.

See?

I can see it avoiding some problems like "my character is from New York and he doesn't know your character who is also from New York" but I mean no offence it looks like it causes more problems than it fixes...

It's not perfect, but on the ST side at least - it's pretty damn helpful. Due to the bureaucracy, I as a Regional Officer can quickly sift through what's going on with the Venue Storytellers beneath me, by looking at their reports. I also keep myself at their disposal at most any time, but the report structure keeps things organized. In turn, I have to report to my superiors in the ST chain, and I keep them abreast of what's going on in the Forsaken venue in the Region. It's more to share information than anything else.

strider