[BlU_sKrEEm]

Is there any word on a nWoD MET book besides The Requiem? Confirmed, hints, rumors, secret codes hidden in important historical documents, anything?

[Tuesday]

The Camarilla sez:

Each main line will get an eBook, made by and for The Camarilla.

All supplements will get MET conversions, made by and for The Camarilla.

There will be no non-Cam conversions, and no "straight" conversions, only conversions made specifically to work in a massive crossover game where everyone gets PC XP and there's high "churn" in characters but the new ones always come in with the same XP as the old ones had.

[zenten]

Cool. So basicly we won't get something as badly written as Requiem then showing up in gaming shops?

[Tuesday]

Requiem MET was bad *because* it was a by-Cam for-Cam conversion, with all kinds of bad changes to make it work with a massive crossover game where everyone gets PC XP and there's high "churn" in characters but the new ones always come in with the same XP as the old ones had.

So if you like Fallen or Awakened, you probably won't want to buy Fallen or Awakened MET - not that you'll get to, since you're not a Cam member.

[Lost_Heretic]

Could someone explain to me how they could do Requiem MET wrong? I mean, isn't it just a Rock-Paper-Scissors system?

[serial_experiments]

Could someone explain to me how they could do Requiem MET wrong? I mean, isn't it just a Rock-Paper-Scissors system?

Not really. It's more of a "Draw a Card, Add mods, Check for Success" kind of thing. It kinda works, and is TT compatible (This last point, in theory... I have yet to put it to practice)
They did, however, mess up with many statistics, and the writing was, to put it simply, Disappointing. (Capital D)

[Luxifer]

yes, base 10 + 5 for successes was a huge fuck up on the part of the playtesters.

I think there is currently a strong push for base 8 + 3 for successes.

[Tuesday]

yes, base 10 + 5 for successes was a huge fuck up on the part of the playtesters.

Not really. The playtesters, after all, were working in an environment where a pool of 10 is *unusually low*. Anyone who matters to their games starts at at least 150 XP on every single character. below that, you're not important, so how the mechanics work for you isn't important, either.

I think there is currently a strong push for base 8 + 3 for successes.

It'll never fly in the Camarilla, because a game that doesn't have MULTIPLE BP 8+ characters running around (using the Coils to make sure they never have problems with vampiric weaknesses) is a rare and many-splendored thing that is plundered by the BP 8+ characters as soon as they find it.

It may be required for your local game, though.

Could someone explain to me how they could do Requiem MET wrong? I mean, isn't it just a Rock-Paper-Scissors system?

#1: No, and thank fucking god. RPS is the worst mechanic in history, and I've seen Megadamage. Revised MET uses tabletop rules to determine your die pool, then you add 1d10. Drawing a 1 fails, period. Total 10+ = 1 success. Every 5 thereafter (15, 20, 25, 30, etc) is another success. 10s explode, but only once, so your absolute maximum pull is die pool + 20.

#2: Mechanically, the numbers don't work out well, but they're not bad and they're much, much, much better than RPS. The problem is what they did to the SETTING.

Clan is more important than Covenant - or, rather, you get bigger and better mechanical advantages from your Clan being strong than your Covenant being strong, which is the same thing in practice.

There is One True City Model, that all cities follow. ALL cities have a Prince and Primogen and a Sheriff and two *appointed* harpies and all that.

Intercity travel is fun and easy and common as dirt.

Oh, and those Clan-and-Covenant-based advantages? They're HUGE, and they're dependent on mortals, and they happen SUDDENLY, with no warning, and absolutely no in-game explanation. One day, because the Harpy™ thinks that the Lord Of Outer Bumfuck is a dillhole, suddenly the Nosferatu have the highest collective Status in the city and now all Nosferatu travel free, quickly, and easily to any location in the city without chance of interception. How? Sewers, of course. Not that the new Nosferatu have ANYTHING to do with sewers, at all, but they re-added THAT in new MET, too. The Carthian and Invictus ones are even worse - because a bunch of VAMPIRES have changed their opinion of OTHER VAMPIRES, suddenly every HUMAN in the city starts acting in a fundamentally different way?

And all the old-WoD stereotypes are back, in full force. Gangrel live in trees and act like Scottish Klingons? SURE! Nosferatu all live in the sewers! Ventrue have stick up their asses and a nobility complex!

And the Camarilla made Khaibit low-Approval, meaning EVERY CITY has four or five Lasombra Ventrue Of Cacophony Khaibit, complete with Obtenebration-as-character-concept that they complain is too weak because it's only useful, not completely broken like it used to be.

Requiem MET got fucked, hard, because it's a game that looks KIND OF LIKE Requiem, but doesn't work at all like it in practice. In practice, it's "How to run the Old WoD The Camarilla™ Way, Using Some Of Requiem's Terminology."

Requiem MET sucks. If you want a Requiem LARP, buy the main MET book and the Requiem tabletop book. The Requiem MET book is barely fit for use as tinder.

[Lost_Heretic]

Holy crap. Now I understand why everyone was going ape-shit when White Wolf wanted to make Camarilla membership mandatory...

[Luxifer]

Not really.  The playtesters, after all, were working in an environment where a pool of 10 is *unusually low*.  Anyone who matters to their games starts at at least 150 XP on every single character.  below that, you're not important, so how the mechanics work for you isn't important, either.

You really must have experienced some bad domains. I don't have that experience down here in sydney. We're working in an environment where the automatic response to char gen is not "let's make some cheese" rather "let's make a character...." after several months of play... "you mean this char concept whose pool of 5, which by all rights should be reasonable, makes him fail half the time??"

So for the Cam down here, which has reasonable players, we get shafted because there is an EXPECTATION that players will cheese and that STs will do nothing to moderate that. A person with a dice pool of 5 should have a reasonable expectation to succeed.

They made 10 and 5 again mostly to remedy the issue of combat, which could have been fixed in a number of ways. They had about 4 options to stymie that and any one of them would have worked, but instead they used all 4 (not using WP on attacks, damage cap being two of the others).

It'll never fly in the Camarilla, because a game that doesn't have MULTIPLE BP 8+ characters running around (using the Coils to make sure they never have problems with vampiric weaknesses) is a rare and many-splendored thing that is plundered by the BP 8+ characters as soon as they find it. 

It may be required for your local game, though.

There is not one single BP/PU/Gnosis 8+ character in Australia as far as I know. There is 1 BP 7 that I know of and only about 10 BP 5 or 6 (only 2 BP 6 in my local game). And that's WITH all players begining with 5 free MC dots (and many players and STs actually are a bit iffy about the use of that).

So allow me to rephrase, because we seem to be more focused on the thematics of roleplaying 8 + 3 is not unreasonable for our games, it may be something that the Australian Affiliate will decide to implement.

And the Camarilla made Khaibit low-Approval, meaning EVERY CITY has four or five Lasombra Ventrue Of Cacophony Khaibit, complete with Obtenebration-as-character-concept that they complain is too weak because it's only useful, not completely broken like it used to be.

Wow? I've seen only one bloodline in my entire game down here. That was a Malkovian from another domain. Isn't that the ST's fault for allowing so many Khaibits in game?

Requiem MET got fucked, hard, because it's a game that looks KIND OF LIKE Requiem, but doesn't work at all like it in practice.  In practice, it's "How to run the Old WoD The Camarilla™ Way, Using Some Of Requiem's Terminology."

Requiem MET sucks.  If you want a Requiem LARP, buy the main MET book and the Requiem tabletop book.  The Requiem MET book is barely fit for use as tinder.

Again, I share a completely different experience than you in my games. Clan has a background importance, but it's all covenant politics down here.

I think my point is that the rules aren't what make or break the game, it's the storytellers/co-ordinators and their chains that do.

This post has been edited by Luxifer: 09 May 2006 - 12:58 AM

[Tuesday]

I am totally willing to accept that Australia is a completely different kettle of fish than, say, Florida.

But the playtesters were in Florida and dealing with players from Florida.

Do the Australian Cam still use the rule that you *cannot* deny a Camarilla member the right to play in your game? You MUST give him a character, even if you refuse to approve his existing one?

And do you have the serious problem that if you deny a character the right to play in your game, and he's got the right friends, you're likely to wind up with your Chronicle "sanctioned" or all your PCs killed as soon as they travel to a neighbouring game or a convention? Because that's a problem in North America. Not everywhere, certainly, and I've heard a lot of good things here, too, but there are places it's hazardous to play because there are sharks.

(And do the Australian Camarilla allow voting on who gets to be ST, and voting out an unpopular ST?)

[Lost_Heretic]

Up here in Connecticut, the politics of the Camarilla get really bad back when my brother was LARPing. Apparently, the entire scene in central Connecticut fell through and everything became an independent LARP.

Seriously, from the way I understand it, the Camarilla put in tons of rules to prevent abuse, which is good, but they don't have anyone 'policing' and making calls with discretion.. It's just black and white.

[jadedeath]

It'll never fly in the Camarilla, because a game that doesn't have MULTIPLE BP 8+ characters running around (using the Coils to make sure they never have problems with vampiric weaknesses) is a rare and many-splendored thing that is plundered by the BP 8+ characters as soon as they find it. 

I remember a time when players would come up with a concept that would be like most Ordo Dracul members saying "I want a character with this merit and that merit that allows you to shrug off some of the restraints of vampirism... and I want them all on the same character!" and you were allowed {nay encouraged!} to slap them... *LOL*

#1:  No, and thank fucking god.  RPS is the worst mechanic in history, and I've seen Megadamage.  Revised MET uses tabletop rules to determine your die pool, then you add 1d10.  Drawing a 1 fails, period.  Total 10+ = 1 success.  Every 5 thereafter (15, 20, 25, 30, etc) is another success.  10s explode, but only once, so your absolute maximum pull is die pool + 20.

what was wrong with Megadamage? *LOL* kidding!

Clan is more important than Covenant - or, rather, you get bigger and better mechanical advantages from your Clan being strong than your Covenant being strong, which is the same thing in practice. 

that I didn't know and in the LARP I'm writing for the new setting that doesn't exist... mostly I'm running under the TT rules though cuz they're practically the same thing and a blurb about how the LARP system runs would have taken 10 pages in the main rulebook...

Intercity travel is fun and easy and common as dirt.

arg... painfully bad...

Oh, and those Clan-and-Covenant-based advantages?  They're HUGE, and they're dependent on mortals, and they happen SUDDENLY, with no warning, and absolutely no in-game explanation.  One day, because the Harpy™ thinks that the Lord Of Outer Bumfuck is a dillhole, suddenly the Nosferatu have the highest collective Status in the city and now all Nosferatu travel free, quickly, and easily to any location in the city without chance of interception.  How?  Sewers, of course.  Not that the new Nosferatu have ANYTHING to do with sewers, at all, but they re-added THAT in new MET, too.  The Carthian and Invictus ones are even worse - because a bunch of VAMPIRES have changed their opinion of OTHER VAMPIRES, suddenly every HUMAN in the city starts acting in a fundamentally different way?

just wait till you read the "system" on Carthian Law... *LOL*

And all the old-WoD stereotypes are back, in full force.  Gangrel live in trees and act like Scottish Klingons?  SURE!  Nosferatu all live in the sewers!  Ventrue have stick up their asses and a nobility complex!

but I like Scottish Klingons... fortunately I've got a smart ST down here in the game I'm playing in... my Gangrel is a University Professor of Religion...

And the Camarilla made Khaibit low-Approval, meaning EVERY CITY has four or five Lasombra Ventrue Of Cacophony Khaibit, complete with Obtenebration-as-character-concept that they complain is too weak because it's only useful, not completely broken like it used to be.

I suppose something has to take the place of Ninjas... or Assamites...

Requiem MET sucks.  If you want a Requiem LARP, buy the main MET book and the Requiem tabletop book.  The Requiem MET book is barely fit for use as tinder.

mine made a pretty good fire...

Logan

[Luxifer]

I am totally willing to accept that Australia is a completely different kettle of fish than, say, Florida.

But the playtesters were in Florida and dealing with players from Florida.

Do the Australian Cam still use the rule that you *cannot* deny a Camarilla member the right to play in your game?  You MUST give him a character, even if you refuse to approve his existing one?

And do you have the serious problem that if you deny a character the right to play in your game, and he's got the right friends, you're likely to wind up with your Chronicle "sanctioned" or all your PCs killed as soon as they travel to a neighbouring game or a convention?  Because that's a problem in North America.  Not everywhere, certainly, and I've heard a lot of good things here, too, but there are places it's hazardous to play because there are sharks.

(And do the Australian Camarilla allow voting on who gets to be ST, and voting out an unpopular ST?)

the VSTs have the right to bar individual characters from their Venues.

There was AN incident last year with the desanctioning of a character, and it was fixed up a bit better. I acknowledge on the national scale I see some problems, but on the domain scale it's generally fine.

I've never seen there be a problem with this issue on a local level though.

We do get to vote in the people who have positions in our local domain, and can vote them out with a vote of no-confidence if needed. Though this has more to do with incompetance than popularity... If you really want I can send you a copy of our grimoire.

[Tuesday]

> the VSTs have the right to bar individual characters from their Venues.

Characters, yes, but what about *players*?

[Glacialis]

I have to admit that I support Tuesday's view on things.

No one's gone and stepped out of line, but I know how heated these discussions get. I'm unfortunately one of the ones that does some of the heating.

That said, please watch it guys. Just a heads up.

Carry on! I've had my own share of horrid shared continuum experiences, and know that the Cam is just like any other share gaming universe: good, bad, ugly, and "dear god what is that THING?"

[serial_experiments]

> the VSTs have the right to bar individual characters from their Venues.

Characters, yes, but what about *players*?

Let's fix that players and change it with "bad players from hell".
Because I've know of that happening. *shudder*

[strider1276]

> the VSTs have the right to bar individual characters from their Venues.

Characters, yes, but what about *players*?

Well, okay, no - the Storyteller can't bar a player from a game. If there is a situation where a player may need to be removed from a game, that's when the ST gets a Coordinator involved. They deal with player-related things, ST's deal with characters.

I agree that I'd like something in place as a preventative measure - it's coming up with something that is fair and not terribly subjective that's the problem, at least in the Cam. No, when I've run Indy games, I will most certainly bar players that I know to be morons from my game. The Cam is just a different critter, is all.

As for the Khaibit thing - Tuesday, where did you get that they are Low Approval? I'm honestly curious - I don't remember them ever being Low. To the best of my knowledge (I'm a Forsaken guy, so I don't pay as much attention to Requiem, except for things for my character and whatnot), they have *never* been Low. Currently, according to the addendum, they are High Approval everywhere but the US, where they are Top Approval.

[Tuesday]

I got that they were low approval from a bunch of people whining on the White Wolf cam board that they were overrun with the things, with two dozen in the local 3 or 4 games.

I believe the complaint may not have been "Low Approval" so much as "not high enough, since there are so goddamned many of them", and I was confusing "Low™ approval" with "don't have to go too far up to get a yes"

[Luxifer]

that sounds like sloppy organisation from the ST chain in that area.