[Santiago]

Prestation is one of the most important aspects of a good vampire LARP but it is also one of the most poorly understood and poorly played aspects of the game. To begin with we need to clear up some misconceptions about prestation.

Myth #1 – Only the Camarilla practices Prestation
Prestation pre-dates any of the great sects. Look at your Dark Ages books if you don' believe me. Favor trading is done by all vampires. It is really the only useful currency as economies come and go as do people, aka influence.

Myth #2 – My character doesn't participate in favour trading
If you are an established and accepted member of the society and you routinely participate in that society then you participate in prestation. That means, if you are playing an appropriate character for a LARP, you participate in prestation. It is a key feature of the game and the society. You want to play the game then you play the game within.

Myth #3 – If they don't ask for something in return I don't own them
Wrong. Vampires are creatures of tradition and custom not contract law. If you accept the favour you own them. It is part of how the society works. The only way you do not owe someone for a favour being done for you is when they are paying off a debt or they specifically tell you otherwise and this is a very, very rare thing. Even amongst friends. Vampires understand that allies will become enemies and enemies will eventually become allies so they always hedge their bets.

Myth # 4 – You never want to be in debt
This is a big false. Being in debt is a good thing. It means that people have an active interest in seeing you stay alive. They want to be paid. Having a few powerful people or a number of small people wanting to see you live long enough to pay them back ensures that if anyone comes after you there are plenty of people who will come after them afterwards. If enough powerful people holding debts on you they may be able to convince the Prince not to have you destroyed. This will likely cost them boons to the Prince which they will want pass along to you by adding to the debt you own them. And so the cycle continues.

Myth #5 – It is forgiveable to renege on a boon
This is never, ever the case. The moment you renege on a boon your word is now worthless. Your status in the city will come crashing down and people will stop willingly deal with your character. Payment for services rendered will have to given up front before others will do anything for you. The debts you hold on others will become worthless – eye for an eye is a big thing in kindred society. Essentially, you have put yourself out on a island all by yourself and there is no one there who will help you. You are pariah. It is a scary, scary place. Lone vampires are easy targets.

Myth #6 – Favours are only traded within sect
Another fallacy. The trading of boons can be done with anyone that your character deems trustworthy. It is riskier to trade favours outside of your sect as the person you are dealing with does not have the social constraints that dealing within your society does. However, there are often other factors that will ensure they deal fairly and honour their agreements. For example, in a Camarilla city Giovanni exist solely at the sufferance of the Camarilla so they will deal fairly since they don't really want the might of dozens of angry vampires turned directly towards them.

Part Two later this week...

[_vamp]

More! More! This is most excellent! Exactly in the spirit of Vampire

[Tuesday]

Myth #3 uses "own" instead of "owe" twice at the start.

[Santiago]

More! More! This is most excellent! Exactly in the spirit of Vampire

More is later.I will get part two tomorrow and part three by the end of the week.

[jadedeath]

Myth #6 – Favours are only traded within sect
Another fallacy. The trading of boons can be done with anyone that your character deems trustworthy. It is riskier to trade favours outside of your sect as the person you are dealing with does not have the social constraints that dealing within your society does. However, there are often other factors that will ensure they deal fairly and honour their agreements. For example, in a Camarilla city Giovanni exist solely at the sufferance of the Camarilla so they will deal fairly since they don't really want the might of dozens of angry vampires turned directly towards them.

Part Two later this week...

I'm forced to disagree... when you get outside of your sect... it's not Prestation... that's why it's usually kept inside your own sect... most vamps don't find anyone trustworthy... especially other vampires {if they're smart}

a Camarilla vampire who makes a deal with a Giovanni is on their own... no Camarilla group of vamps is going to show up and meet vengeance on the Giovanni who breaks their word... they'll shrug and slap the Camarilla vamp in the back of the head for trying to get the Giovanni to break the contract in the first place...

As for a Camarilla vamp trading deals with a Sabbat? well... those stupid people are usually killed off too quickly for anyone to really care...

Setites? possible... but again it's not Prestation... and if you end up too far in debt to a Setite... you're fucked...

Assamites? Some of them are Camarilla... but the others you really wouldn't want to make a deal with unless you're pointing them in the direction of someone who's of more powerful blood {then running for the hills}

Logan

[Santiago]

I'm forced to disagree... when you get outside of your sect... it's not Prestation... that's why it's usually kept inside your own sect... most vamps don't find anyone trustworthy... especially other vampires {if they're smart}

You' d be wrong but fine. I look forward to you finding canonical support for your points. Vampiric socierty works on honorable agreements. This likely seems alien to most people given how gamers rarely have a proper concept of honor let alone how to approach things honorably.

a Camarilla vampire who makes a deal with a Giovanni is on their own... no Camarilla group of vamps is going to show up and meet vengeance on the Giovanni who breaks their word... they'll shrug and slap the Camarilla vamp in the back of the head for trying to get the Giovanni to break the contract in the first place...

You have a poor understanding of the Promise. The Promise makes it clear the Giovanni stay out of the Camarila's business and the Giovanni will do the same. Trading favors for personal projects that do not influence the Camarilla's business is perfectly acceptable. Hell, there is nothing in the Promise that prevents Giovani from garnering status, even. They just have to stay out of the way of the Camarilla's affair. Nothing more.

As for a Camarilla vamp trading deals with a Sabbat? well... those stupid people are usually killed off too quickly for anyone to really care...

So you are disputing the canonical examples from Revised Masquerade where an Elder from the Sabbat still owed a debt to a Camarilla Elder from before the creation of the two great sects. Fair enough. It doesn't make you right unless you are saying you are changing canon in your specific game. The information White Wolf has given us is different.

Setites? possible... but again it's not Prestation... and if you end up too far in debt to a Setite... you're fucked...

Again, where is your proof? New York fell after deals were made with the Setites. The Camarilla deals with them.

Assamites? Some of them are Camarilla... but the others you really wouldn't want to make a deal with unless you're pointing them in the direction of someone who's of more powerful blood {then running for the hills}
Logan

Have you read any of the revised Assamite stuff? Hell, have you ead anything more than the corebook and the mechanics? There is a specific example where a Prince reminds his Primogen they owe an Independent Assamite a life boon each for stopping an Assamite who had succumbed to the Warrior's Flaw and become addicted to diablerie. The best part, the Assamite never asked and the debt was given freely because the characters involved understood that they were honorbound to pay.

To put it simply, Prestation is the art of favor trading with other vampires. Nothing more,

[jadedeath]

You have a poor understanding of the Promise. The Promise makes it clear the Giovanni stay out of the Camarila's business and the Giovanni will do the same. Trading favors for personal projects that do not influence the Camarilla's business is perfectly acceptable. Hell, there is nothing in the Promise that prevents Giovani from garnering status, even. They just have to stay out of the way of the Camarilla's affair. Nothing more.

a Giovanni gaining status would be interfering in Camarilla affairs... if a Giovanni has more status than a Camarilla member and enforces it... that's interference...

So you are disputing the canonical examples from Revised Masquerade where an Elder from the Sabbat still owed a debt to a Camarilla Elder from before the creation of the two great sects. Fair enough. It doesn't make you right unless you are saying you are changing canon in your specific game. The information White Wolf has given us is different.

that's the exception... not the rule... the Sabbat views the whole thing as a war... a Sabbat Neonate is lead to believe that the Cammies are "wrongbad" and the Camarilla do the same sort of political finger wagging at their own Neonates to make sure that the two don't mix with one another...

Again, where is your proof? New York fell after deals were made with the Setites. The Camarilla deals with them.

deals yes... prestation? not-so-much... you're making prestation out to be a little more than it really should be I think... I think you're somewhat making it sound like as soon as I shake hands with Setite {or whatever independant or Sabbat} A that I have to go running to the Harpies to let them know I made the deal... even if the deal is to have the Prince killed... honor is one thing... and when you're dealing with blood sucking assholes... honor takes on a different meaning...

Have you read any of the revised Assamite stuff? Hell, have you ead anything more than the corebook and the mechanics? There is a specific example where a Prince reminds his Primogen they owe an Independent Assamite a life boon each for stopping an Assamite who had succumbed to the Warrior's Flaw and become addicted to diablerie. The best part, the Assamite never asked and the debt was given freely because the characters involved understood that they were honorbound to pay.

I take alot of canon with a grain of salt... in such a case the Prince had best be powerful enough to enforce that particular edict... as if the Assamite who had succumed had not targeted this Primogen or that one... then they were not in harms way and did not owe a debt... that's why the Camarilla keeps embracing Lawyers...

To put it simply, Prestation is the art of favor trading with other vampires. Nothing more,

yes... and no... some favors need not fall under Prestation is my point... there's no... "well since you dropped off the WMD's for me and I only gave you a ghoul in return... I think I still owe you 2 and 1/2 minor boons"

Prestation I've always found to be the officially sanctioned trading of boons within your own clan or Sect... under the table deals need not apply...

Logan

[Tuesday]

if a Giovanni has more status than a Camarilla member and enforces it... that's interference...

Uh, no. Status is not an in-game measure, any more than physical traits are. Believe it or not, it's possible for a Catholic to respect an Anglican or a Baptist, even if the Anglicans and Baptists are forbidden to interfere in Catholic matters on pain of death.

deals yes... prestation? not-so-much..

Uh... define "prestation" for me, please. I really want to know what definition you're using, because the one we're using is "the exchange of favours and debts, and the use of debt as currency."

I think you're somewhat making it sound like as soon as I shake hands with Setite {or whatever independant or Sabbat} A that I have to go running to the Harpies to let them know I made the deal.

... why would you tell a harpy that you made a deal?

"Registering boons" is stupid shit that only shows up in LARPs run by and for idiots, man. However, as soon as you shake hands with the Setite and agree to owe him a favour in exchange for what he wants, yes, you HAVE incurred a boon, and yes, you ARE engaging in prestation.

some favors need not fall under Prestation is my point...

All favours are prestation. Debts are debts. Favours owed are favours owed.

Prestation I've always found to be the officially sanctioned trading of boons within your own clan or Sect... under the table deals need not apply...

You may have found it this way, but you are objectively wrong.

[Santiago]

Logan,

If you are going to take all canon with a "grain of salt" and discard what is not convient then there is no point in continuing the discussion. The are canonical examples hat prove everything in the above piece while your defence is "that's not how I'd do it" which is fine. I can understand not doing it that way.

But what I am providing are eamples of how things are done. Eventually, I will get to the point where I can discuss how players can actually play the game of prestation is an useful and meaningful way in a LARP. This will not only result in a more authentic but enjoyable game for all involved.

[jadedeath]

Logan,

If you are going to take all canon with a "grain of salt" and discard what is not convient then there is no point in continuing the discussion. The are canonical examples hat prove everything in the above piece while your defence is "that's not how I'd do it" which is fine. I can understand not doing it that way.

But what I am providing are eamples of how things are done. Eventually, I will get to the point where I can discuss how players can actually play the game of prestation is an useful and meaningful way in a LARP. This will not only result in a more authentic but enjoyable game for all involved.

What I'm saying is this...

Deals can happen between two vampires of two different sects... or a sect and an independant... I'm not disputing that... those would be under the table deals...

In RARE instances it would happen... it's not as "every day" as it looks in the above... it would be like a KGB agent and a CIA agent cutting a deal about stuff that was not "state secret" during the cold war... if they were found out they'd be fucked... it COULD happen yes... but it's risky and most wouldn't want to take that risk...

the cases above with the Sabbat elder and Assamite were the exceptions... not the rule... people should advocate caution when even thinking about making a deal with a Sabbat vampire... even the merest whisper of it in the Prince's ear can get you killed... then the Sabbat vampire is out a debt and what's in it for him?

Logan

[Santiago]

I never said it was common. In fact, I specifically stated trading favors outside of your sect is riskier. But it happens and it must be acknowledged that it happens. Doing so allows those rare instances to have an impact when the come up and allows for some damn interesting RPing down the line when the boon is called.

[Tuesday]

Steve:
Okay, so trading boons with those outside your sect is rare and risky. We don't disagree on that point.

How does that make them not boons?

And how does that make breaking your word and defaulting on a debt any "better"?

[jadedeath]

Steve:
Okay, so trading boons with those outside your sect is rare and risky.  We don't disagree on that point.

How does that make them not boons?

And how does that make breaking your word and defaulting on a debt any "better"?

It makes defaulting on the debt better because it could be a scheme... the Sabbat vampire {or hell the Camarilla vampire if they're smart} could have the nod from the higher ups to get info from the other sect and make a few deals here and there to get into the good graces of a stupid member from the other side... if you have the approval of your higher ups it makes defaulting on your boon not only less risky... but better if you can get info about certain people or places...

Logan

[Tuesday]

But you've just broken your word, and not paid a debt.

It doesn't matter that you broke your word to an anarch or a Setite or a Caitiff. You just said, outright, that you dont' pay back your debts and that your currency is really worthless.

This means that what you owe me is worthless - both to me AND to anyone I might sell it to, because you might not pay it back. You've just cut the supports out from under the most fundamental underpinning of kindred currency.

And besides,

#1: anyone with half a brain would understand that it's better to pay off your debt 100%, because you'll get more from it AND the capacity to deal further. You're postulating that the deal-breaker's superiors are morons. While this is not uncommon in PCs, it is not a good thing to base a world on.

#2: anyone with half a brain will refuse to do favours for a homicidal lunatic that involve him learning anything about you, without getting payment *in advance*. You're postulating that the creditor is, himself, a moron. While this is not uncommon in PCs, it is not a good thing to base a world on.