[Santiago]

Now that many of myths about the nature of prestation and boons have been settled we need to have a solid understanding of what the different levels of boons actually mean. Far too often people undervalue or overvalue the favour that is being done. Given how boons are the economic life blood of cainite and kindred society it is important for everyone to understand the value of favours.

Simply put, there are basically two types of boons. One category is based on time and effort and the second is based on risk. Within those two broader categories there are different values of boons.

Trivial Boon
A Trivial Boon is any favour that can be reasonably accomplished in one evening. Laws of the Night suggests acting as a body guard for an evening but anything that is easily accomplished can qualify as a trivial boon. Access to another's herd or bail money for ones ghoul could all easily qualify.

Minor Boon
The next step up from a Trivial Boon is a Minor Boon. These are requests that will take more than a nights work but not tie up a portion of the granter's resources for a prolonged period of time. For games that run in real time a good rule of thumb is something that can be accomplished and completed in between sessions. For games that don't run in real-time I would suggest tasks that can be completed in a month or less are examples of minor boons. Most expenditures of influence fall into this category though more hands on actions like surveillance or translating an ancient text are also good examples of a minor boon.

Major Boon
Major Boons are the boons that most often take the longest time and the largest expenditures on influence and other resources on the part of the granter of the boon. Anything that takes more time than the period between two sessions for a real-time game or tasks that take longer than a month to complete fall into this category. Also, acts that grant the receiver something permanent should fall into this category – such as discipline instruction or the training of most skills. Disciplines and skills permanently enhance a character and, from an in game perspective, the receiver may eventually become an enemy who will be able to bring to bear whatever you taught against you. Simply put, a major boon is required to make the risk worthwhile.

Blood Boon
The blood boon is the first of the risk type boons. The requester of a Blood Boon is literally asking someone to spill blood for them. The time it takes to do so is less relevant than the associated risk to the granter. Injuring or killing someone, be they mortal or vampire, is a dangerous affair.

The death and injury of mortals tends to be noticed by friends and associates who, more often than not, are willing to bring the police in to search for those responsible. Even those that can not bring the police in may have different resources they may be able to call in. Street gangs and organize crime are a good examples of this type or protection. Not only is this a potential threat to the masquerade if an attack on a mortal is not properly handled but the target very well could be a pawn of another kindred who would likely not appreciate the destruction of one of his resources.

Kindred targets offer their own issues. The death of a vampire is a violation of the Traditions. Even if you are playing Sabbat, there are prohibitions on the slaughter of loyal soldiers. Vampires are often much better at defending themselves. They know what you are and they know how to hurt you back. And finally, they are likely in debt to other kindred. Kindred who want to see them pay off those debts.

Life Boon
The rarest of all boons, a life boon means that the granter has literally saved the receivers life. Quite often there is no negotiation. It is as simple as someone interceding in a do or die situation to ensure you life. Pulling a torpid kindred out of a burning building or jumping into a fight against a hunter when the other kindred is losing are great examples but there are others.

A revised time-line example quotes a Prince to his Primogen reminding them that they owe a life boon to an Assamite who captured a clanmate who had become addicted to diablerie and was hunting the Camarilla down. There is some flexibility but if it is commonly acknowledged that the person saved your life through direct action you own them a life boon.

The other thing to remember is that life boons are rarely ever paid back all at once. They are paid back over time. As the granter of the boon you must remember this and know that eventually you will have call the boon paid off. There is no hard and fast rules on timing and what will be done. But remember to be reasonable. A dozen or so trivial boons, two or three major boons or a blood boon & a minor are all possibly acceptable. Try putting yourself in the other player's shoes. If what you are asking would be unreasonable if you were in their position then you should probably let them off. When in doubt when it comes to paying off a life boon take it out of game for a while to work out the details with the other player involved and a Storyteller.

[zenten]

This might be covered in later threads, but I was wondering, what happens if someone doesn't follow through, or denies that favour was ever done? I mean, yes, this is supposed to blacken the person's name, but how exactly? Does the person who was cheated just start telling everyone they know?

[Santiago]

This might be covered in later threads, but I was wondering, what happens if someone doesn't follow through, or denies that favour was ever done?  I mean, yes, this is supposed to blacken the person's name, but how exactly?  Does the person who was cheated just start telling everyone they know?

WIll be covered later. The answer is basically you don't becuase to do so means you are cheating so the ST should kick the shait out of the player involved.

[Tuesday]

#1: Generally, if a favour is done, there's evidence of it. In cases of approximately equal Status, this kind of very serious accusation results in investigation by every curious party, and a whole lot of crap being dug up. It's a very, very dangerous situation in which to be the one lying.

#2: In cases of a vastly disproportionate power, it's stupid and dangerous for the powerful person to deny owing the little person a legit favour - after all risking their sworn word like that over a trivial person is pointless. It's also extremely stupid and dangerous for a weak Kindred to refuse to pay back a strong one, for reasons that should seem obvious.

In the case of large debts, it *can* be tempting for a strong person to renege. In that case, if things get to the point where the little person is making public noise, they've already failed - and if they're going to kill their creditor, they're risking *everything*, so they'd better be completely sure AND totally paranoid about getting it right, and they're still making a very, very risky play. Just in case, most weak people who do a favour for a strong one are not secretive, at all, about the fact that they've done so - when everyone knows that the Prince owes those two Anarchs a boon for saving the life of his child, it's much less practical (and profitable) for him to simply annihilate them quietly.

#3: The flip side, lying about a debt that never happened, is equally dangerous and carries equal problems for doing it wrong.


Finally, a point about human nature, which is also Kindred nature. In the same way that a doctor signing off on a fraudulent injury claim has undoubtedly done it before and will do it again until caught, a kindred who finds a way to not pay his debts is likely going to do it again. That kind of pattern, even if it's only found when you start looking after the fact and realise that people who did things that benefited him came to bad ends, is damning.

[Tuesday]

The answer is basically you don't becuase to do so means you are cheating so the ST should kick the shait out of the player involved.

Bah! "Because the ST will kick you" is a bad reason for your CHARACTER to do something, even if it's perfectly true. There are, however, perfectly pragmatic *in-character* reasons to pay your debts promptly, as well as "ST will kick the shit out of the player" out-of-game ones.

[zenten]

WIll be covered later. The answer is basically you don't becuase to do so means you are cheating so the ST should kick the shait out of the player involved.

No offense, but that's a pretty stupid reason. John's reasons however cover that quite well.

[pathological]

I had to loko stuff like this up too, just to know exactly what i was doing, without buying the prince's primer.

This link has EVERYTHING you will need to know about politicking in Vampire. What each position does, boons ETC. AND they have examples of each area too. it is a GREAT read if it you want an eye opening. i will throw in my fav example below.

http://www.jyhad.net... /Protocols.html

Check it out... Gives you an example just how cut throat things can become...

Example of Legal Process:

Prince Wormwood glanced over at Ventish, the Tremere Primogen. The Malkavian Sheriff stood behind him; around them both a crowd had gathered; several Harpies hovered nearby. Ventish's face looked paler than usual. Wormwood had known of Ventish's dislike of the Ventrue Primogen, but had not thought he would be so blatant as to set him on fire in a sideroom in an Elysium. He scanned the room; catching the attention of who he knew to be the Regent of the local Tremere Chantry he raised his eyebrow slightly and watched as the regent shook his head. The Tremere Primogen had been found stood over the still burning body; his dislike of the Ventrue Primogen was well known, and they had verbally clashed many times in the past.

While no one had seen him commit the murder, there was little doubt in the minds of everyone present that Ventish was guilty. A few of the Brujah had positioned themselves near the handful of Tremere- they knew that if he was found guilty of murder and breaching Elysium, the whole Clan would be punished. They where looking forward to it.

Wormwood considered his options. Ventish was a 'good' Primogen- he always supported the Imperial Prince in Primogen votes; the Nosferatu was no fool, he knew this was because the Tremere supported most princes anyway; but having to clamp down on all Tremere within his huge Domain would be more hassle than he wished. He thought for a while how to get himself and the Tremere Primogen out of this situation. Quickly he came up with the solution. It was risky, but if the Primogen was quick on the uptake, he could walk away from this fine.

"Right, My Lord Tremere. This is a pretty mess; I have to ask you- did you kill the Ventrue Primogen?"

Wormwood watched Ventish ALMOST smile with his face (he certainly did smile with his eyes) and snap back a reply as quickly as possible.

"Your Imperial Majesty, I did not. I merely walked in on the remains of the body when I was found."

Wormwood nodded. Ventish was clever enough he realised; good. Suddenly one of the Harpies of his Domain, Vincent, a former Royal harpy stepped forward.

"Your Majesty, the Tremere Primogen is lying."

Wormwood raised an eyebrow. Ventish turned quickly to confront the Harpy.

"You have evidence?"

"I don't have to have any... I just read your aura and me and EVERYONE could see that you were lying Ventish..."

A few in the room realised that Vincent had nearly committed political suicide; Wormwood knew what was coming before it came. Ventish turned back to the Prince, his voice cold and higher with fake indignity.

"YOUR MAJESTY! I am shocked? You've allowed a Toreador Anarch present evidence at they court"

"WHAT!?" the Harpy exclaimed; he didn't understand how things worked. Wormwood certainly did.

"I believe you may be right Ventish. Certainly I shall have to consider my options carefully, and ask the Chief Harpy why THEY chose such an individual to join them," he added, making sure he was in the clear of what was to come.

Unfortunately Vincent of the Toreador had no idea of what had just happened, and reacted to Wormwoods show with indignity.

"What the hell is going on?" his Irish accent broke out. Behind him, the Chief Harpy, Chloe smiled to herself and began a half whisper to her fellow Harpies.

Meanwhile the Tremere Primogen turned slowly to face Vincent; he knew how things where right now; if he did this wrong he would be killed; the Prince was on his side, that he knew, and the this Toreador had made a mistake, but the results where still to be guessed at.

"A viper in our midst. I wonder, are the entire Toreador so effected..." , the Tremere hissed.

"What the hell are you talking about?" interrupted Vincent; Ventish noticed with some satisfaction that the Toreador Primogen was shaking his head. The Tremere carried on.

"You Sir, you and your disregard for the Traditions and laws of the Camarilla. You and your attempt to subvert the Camarilla from within..."

"I beg your pardon?"

"I had given my word as a Primogen. You say you 'glanced' at my aura and contradict me! You glance at my aura... you doubt my word!"

"Well, of course I bloody well do, you murdering swine."

"That's MR murdering swine to you Vincent! Or, rather, Lord PRIMOGEN murdering swine. You Sir, have decided to disregard our sacred traditions, disregard the rules that have kept the Camarilla in place for the past seven hundred years, you have taken the system of status, which unites us and binds us, and defines our place in our society, and you have thrown it out the window. You doubt my word in public... by doing so, you suggest that status is redundant. You wish to destroy it, eh?"

Vincent suddenly realised where this was going...

"Er... no, that's not..."

"No doubt you wish to get rid of Boons and introduce democracy into the Camarilla as well?" Ventish was relentless.

"No, now wait a minute... Your Majesty, I am a Harpy of thy Imperial Domain, surely my word carries..."

Chloe stepped forward and spoke in her most refined voice.

"Your Imperial majesty, the Harpies of thy Domain do distance themselves from Vincent's words. He does not speak for us. He stands alone in this allegation."

Silence. Vincent blinked once and tried to work out what was going on; Ventish smiled, and Wormwood watched this Toreador get hung out to dry in public by his fellow Harpies. He was glad he had never joined their ranks when younger. More vicious than snakes the lot of them.

The Tremere Primogen was the first to speak.

"Your majesty, I insist that this 'subversive' be addressed with at once; the whole of Clan Tremere, of whom I speak for, cannot allow such a..."

Example of a Bloodhunt:

Prince Wormwood nodded.

"So be it; I hereby announce a Bloodhunt upon Vincent of the Toreador, former member of the Harpies of my Imperial Domain, and once holder of the title Royal Harpy, for the crimes of sedition and undermining the stability of my domain- both of which are breaches of the Second tradition.. Under the terms of the 'Red Guild' this Bloodhunt is now extended into all remaining eight Domains of the Guild. Thus let his life be a warning to all those who would subvert our Praxis in ANY way..."

This post has been edited by pathological: 09 June 2006 - 08:02 PM

[Tuesday]

Hey, Pathological - while that's a decent site for some things, it's also for The Camarilla™ - the gargantuan and bloated shared game - with all of their bad assumptions and compuslive need for hard rules.

For example, they have mistakenly taken the Status examples in the book to be hard-and-fast rules, and the Positions in the MET book to be correct. They've got a lot to say that's good, but it's tainted by their assumption that "harpy" is not an insult and that Primogen is clan-based and that, oh, there are *game mechanics* enforcing positions.

Particularly bad are their sections on things like the shared game. Worth a laugh: what can "make a domain in bad standing".

    *  The Prince changes Clans
    * The Prince leaves the Camarilla (going Autark, for example)
    * Harboring a criminal bloodhunted by a Justicar
    * Exposed to be aiding the enemies of the Camarilla
    * Bring a false accusation against a fellow Prince
    * Bringing a Motion of Bad Standing which fails - this is a double-edged sword: Bring a Motion and it succeeds and you can make a Prince bow to your will. Bring it and it fails and you suffer.
    * Not paying a Boon
    * Ignoring Status
    * The Prince is discovered to be Caitiff

Leaves the Camarilla? CHANGES CLANS? *JUSTICARS* offering Blood Hunts? *Caitiff* successfully masquerading as a real vampire?

The section on Boons is pretty good, except for the last two moronic paragraphs.


Yeah. It's a good read, but don't *ever* try to refer to it as sole support for your character's actions, or as "the way things should be", or any ST with a brain[1] will tear your head off when he's done laughing in your face.


[1]: This disqualifies all Camarilla STs, sadly. The rules they are required to follow prevent them from using their brains, which effectively is the same as not having brains.

[Santiago]

No offense, but that's a pretty stupid reason.  John's reasons however cover that quite well.

Calling it cheating is a perfectly good answer. It is basically the same reason why you don't drive a cement truck loaded down with dynamite into the game. You are breaking a key conceit of the game and not playing within the accepted bounds.

How to handle it in character, as I said, would be covered later. So please, be careful who you call stupid.

[pathological]

Hey, Pathological - while that's a decent site for some things, it's also for The Camarilla™ - the gargantuan and bloated shared game - with all of their bad assumptions and compuslive need for hard rules.

For example, they have mistakenly taken the Status examples in the book to be hard-and-fast rules, and the Positions in the MET book to be correct.  They've got a lot to say that's good, but it's tainted by their assumption that "harpy" is not an insult and that Primogen is clan-based and that, oh, there are *game mechanics* enforcing positions.

Particularly bad are their sections on things like the shared game.  Worth a laugh:  what can "make a domain in bad standing".
Leaves the Camarilla?  CHANGES CLANS?  *JUSTICARS* offering Blood Hunts?  *Caitiff* successfully masquerading as a real vampire?

The section on Boons is pretty good, except for the last two moronic paragraphs. 
Yeah.  It's a good read, but don't *ever* try to refer to it as sole support for your character's actions, or as "the way things should be", or any ST with a brain[1] will tear your head off when he's done laughing in your face.
[1]:  This disqualifies all Camarilla STs, sadly.  The rules they are required to follow prevent them from using their brains, which effectively is the same as not having brains.

You do have a very good point, excuse my terminology, i restate. It is a good guide with some decent examples of play. And youa re correct it is for the cammy universe only. For thoes who have no concepot of the system though it is a good introduction of how things CAN happen. We had a player with No diea how to play a prince, well, read up a bit on there and it gave him many idea and pointed out areas where he was being a total ass. In the sense of him not doing his job well.

The boons section i did like, most people have no idea HOW to playw ith boons. Usually l like to hold them over people's head. Accumulate them, etc. SO much fun that way :-)

[zenten]

Calling it cheating is a perfectly good answer. It is basically the same reason why you don't drive a cement truck loaded down with dynamite into the game. You are breaking a key conceit of the game and not playing within the accepted bounds.

It's not a sufficient answer though. As to the dynamite example, that's a matter of scale. This is more on the line of trying to kill another PC.

It's not a sufficient answer though.  As to the dynamite example, that's a matter of scale.  This is more on the line of trying to kill another PC.

I didn't call anyone stupid, I called your explanation stupid.

[Santiago]

What you say and what you imply are often very different things.

This post has been edited by Santiago: 10 June 2006 - 12:58 AM

[zenten]

Sorry, I did not mean to give that implication Ryan.

[Tuesday]

I really think "that's cheating!" is a bad answer to "what happens when somebody defaults on a Boon", as well.

After all, people in Vampire *really do* break their deals sometimes, because they are uanble or unwilling to pay, just like they sometimes break Traditions or commit diablerie. Defaulting on a debt is not the same, at all, as driving a tanker truck into the wall of Elysium and suiciding to kill the rest of the game, because that kind of thing doesn't and *can't* happen in Vampire, where failing to pay a debt can and does - just like diablerie.

You don't pay your boons because it's IMPOSSIBLE not to.
You pay your boons because it's UNTHINKABLE not to - the consequences are too large and too severe to be worth what you'd gain. As such, the question "So, what ARE these consequences, and how do those play out in-game?" is perfectly legitimate, and deserves a more complete answer than "essentially, you can't. That's cheating".

That being said, you ALSO said "It's coming in part 3", which tells me right there that we ARE going to get a more complete answer from your perspective, which presumably will enumerate the in-game reasons why your character pays his debts as well as the out-of-game ones.