[Rekka No Ryo]

do they ALL have to serve some unnamable horror from beyond the stars or can say in example An Akashic who wants to prove that he is the best by going around and killing other fighters and the like be considered one as well ?

[Annael]

Oh, goodness, no. There's a very distinct line between a mage and a Nephandus. Nephandi aren't just 'bad boy' mages, but neither is it necessary for them to enter into the service of some evil entity.

Here's the deal. Nephandi want to destroy *everything.* Just as mages feel the call toward Ascension, the tugging of their Avatars to some supernal state of oneness with all creation, so do Nephandi feel that same call toward oblivion. It is, I suppose, a yearning toward purity, in a way, for both sides. The Avatar of a mage seems to find that purity in a perfect synthesis of all things. The Avatar of a Nephandus wants to find that purity in a pristine and total nonexistence.

The move from mage to Nephandus is a very specific one. In the Book of Madness Revised, there's a section where it describes the goings-on inside the Caul. While I'm not entirely pleased that a book would take it upon itself to present a nailed-down version of something that should probably be an intimate and personalized experience, I think it does a good job of illustrating the general point of the thing: that is, it's all about choice.

A mage can step into the Caul of his own free will, or he can be thrown in bodily. Since the object is generally to create more of their kind, Nephandi usually wouldn't consider the second choice ideal. It's best if a person has been prepared beforehand, brought to a certain mindset that predisposes them toward making the "right" choice. Mages who're still thinking like...well, normal people are quite likely to simply accept death rather than the horrors of the other option presented to them. And while the Caul can be a gruesome method of execution, that's really not the *point* of the thing. In a perverse way, the Nephandi seem to see the Caul as sacred, and presumably would rather not treat it as a base method of horrible death when, frankly, if they want the guy dead, they can have a lot more fun torturing him in a more hands-on way.

In any case, while informing him beforehand seems to be traditional, the mage doesn't necessarily have to know the ins and outs of the decision he's making before he enters the Caul. Indeed, in a sense I suppose that it's nearly impossible for a person to completely fathom the choice he's confronted with, until it's essentially drilled into his skull by waving the concept before him like a flag. But by the time the moment of truth comes, he knows *exactly* what he's facing. There is life, affirmation, and *existence* on the one hand, both for him and for every other being that has ever been or ever will be (though if he takes this road, he must be aware that his life is forfeit--he will never step out of the Caul alive, though he may still retain possession of a clean soul that will see another incarnation). On the other hand, there is destruction. Annihilation, both of the self and of everything that exists. All his loved ones, his enemies, his god, his life, his soul...everything, on this path, is handed over to oblivion. Maybe not immediately, and indeed some Nephandi might well be able to talk themselves into believing that it'll be staved off for long enough to make this choice worth it. But somewhere inside, he will always know what he has committed to. If he takes this option, he might live...but not necessarily. He may still be tested, and he might still die. Oblivion wants only strong servants, after all. If he makes it through all this in one piece, then he steps out, a newly-minted Nephandus (or possibly he dies, and only his now-twisted Avatar leaves, to be reincarnated as a Widderslainte).

Nephandi seem to often make pacts with demons, Wyrm-things, or Things from Beyond.
Nephandi are not sane by any human definition of the term; theirs is the clarity of vision granted by despair. What is a soul good for, really, when you already want to see God reduced to ash? It matters only as much as the power they can get in return for bartering it. (Some Nephandi have a better grasp than others of the nature of the thing; look through some NPC writeups, and you'll see that there are those who've unknowingly sold themselves into slavery this way, while others very carefully maintain autonomy). Demon-things, for their part, seem to consider Nephandi fairly ideal servants because, hell, they're already so twisted they make most Infernalists look like your maiden aunt. Saves a lot of time when you recruit someone who's already powerful and evil enough to gleefully do anything you want them to.

Edit: I get way too enthusiastic about Nephandi. Maybe someone should worry about me.

[Kuroukaze]

Hehe, very good explination as always, Annael .

In short, where Mages are Creativity Personified, Nephandi are essentially Nihilism Personified. How they go about that is their own business, but generally Things From Beyond are convenient ways to go about their destructive urges.

[Rekka No Ryo]

ok. thanks for clearing that up. so the example would be a interms of alignment a evil mage who goes around killing other fighters to prove that he is the best, yet isnt a Nephandi.. correct ?

[Annael]

Correct!

[AlecRavager]

ok. thanks for clearing that up. so the example would be a interms of alignment a evil mage who goes around killing other fighters to prove that he is the best, yet isnt a Nephandi.. correct ?

Wouldn't he have Jhor or Entropic Resonance to ridiculous levels? He might not be Nephandus-insane, but Jhor-insane if he got all caught up in the killing of people...

Although with certain paradigms, ritual dueling to prove yourself better than other mages might be somewhat acceptable. Don't have the Akashic Tradbook or anything, but I imagine they'd be more okay with it than, say, the Celestial Chorus. How did they get through the Himalayan Wars without racking up the Jhor points?

Some mages out there are more inhuman than a Nephandus.

~~ AlecRavager
"Hey, there goes Edna with a saxophone!"

[ROMzombie]

Definitely lots of Jhor Resonance. Other mages would feel him comming from miles off.



Although the Cauls seem to be the perfect method of producing corruption... I seem to remember reading something about a Batini Faction being able to go deep-cover and survive the Cauls...

[PhantomStranger]

Yeah, and the Euthanatoi would be lining up to guide him out of Jhor, or take him down in the worst case.

As for those Batini, I think I remember reading that they did go to the Cauls, and unlike what they thought, they came out as perfect Batini barabbi... perhaps able to pass for normal mages, but Nephandi all the same.

[ROMzombie]

As for those Batini, I think I remember reading that they did go to the Cauls, and unlike what they thought, they came out as perfect Batini barabbi... perhaps able to pass for normal mages, but Nephandi all the same.

No, I remember that part, but that's not what I'm talking about. There's another paragraph in there somewhere. I'll check Lost Paths tonight, and see if I can scare it up.

[Rekka No Ryo]

this is a AB as noted in the example.

[ROMzombie]

::shrugs:: Personaly, I think that deep-cover Nephandi infiltrators would be an awweome story element.... Lost Paths p35 talks about the fact that Batini Barrabi use the Black Spiral instead of a Caul... and that some of the Batini who walk it can use it for self-understanding, and thus be unaffected by it.

[Annael]

I remember that chapter, and I loathe it. The Black Spiral doesn't turn you into a Nephandus, at least anywhere else in WoD canon. It just turns you into a f***ed-up Wyrm-worshipping mage. *shrug* Of course it's up to the ST, but...meh. It flies in the face of not one, but two entire gamelines. According to every bit of Werewolf-related material in existence (and why have the Black Spiral in there if you want to have nothing to do with Werewolf?), no one who walks the Black Spiral comes out sane, if they survive it at all, and Black Spiral does not Nephandi make.

It also irritates me that when they finally came out with the Batini book, they turned an awesome sect of mages into OMGThey'reZooperPowaredR0XX0rs!! !eleventy! Apparently the Batini can do everything, be everywhere, are all saints, have created everything worth creating (including an entire religion, which I feel is done a disservice by this), and are way better at being hidden and mysterious than any other Mage group that relies on being hidden to do their jobs; oh, and also they're so good at Correspondence that it turns out the Virtual Adepts are actually just pathetic.

And in return for all this, they suck at Entropy magic. Well, there we go then.

</rant>

I apologize. Please don't take that as an attack on you or your opinions, ROMZombie. Just needed to get that off my chest. Lost Paths is an excellent book. It has some great stuff, including quite a lot of great Batini stuff. I prefer to read between the lines of the Mary-Suedom bits, and figure that they (like all mages) have a rather overinflated opinion of themselves. I can actually think of some ways to use the Black Spiral enlightenment deal that would create some very interesting implications on how the world is really put together. The Entropy thing I just toss out. It and the whole setup involved with it border on making them not mages, but something else entirely. Baby Oracles, perhaps.

Nephandi infiltrators would make for some interesting material, but I tend to think it wouldn't work in the long run. Wouldn't stop some people from trying, of course. "I know I'm stalwart enough to face it!" Couple of years later, the guy's not on your side anymore...even if he thinks he still is. Hey, some groups might feel it's even worth the sacrifice. I can think of a few elements in the Technocracy that might do it. You just make sure that their side of things isn't the only one you receive.

Of course, there's the question: do you trust someone who hangs around with Nephandi that much, no matter how pure they seem? It'd be a hell of a thing to actually *have* someone who's able to stand up to all the corruption, but no one they report back to can bring themselves to trust the guy. How do you know, after all? How can you ever be sure?

[I Hate All Life]

I'm with Annael on everythign she's said. The Ali-Batin are an awesome concept, but I have issues with how they're presented; in trying to make them relevent, the Mage writers seemed to go overboard. The Spiral angle for Nephandi is also pretty bad, and really doesn't jibe with either gameline.

[PhantomStranger]

's funny, though... I was just reading Lost Paths again this morning, and I had an odd thought about the Labyrinth... maybe the book isn't speaking about the Black Spiral, but the Labyrinth from Wraith... and it just struck me that this was another little detail that made the post-Reckoning WoD one step closer to fitting in with the Exalted continuity, as the Underworld and the Labyrinth were lifted almost whole cloth from the Wraith books...

[ROMzombie]

maybe the book isn't speaking about the Black Spiral, but the Labyrinth from Wraith...

Nope, sorry... It specificaly says "also called the Black Spiral".

[PhantomStranger]

Well, aren't they the same thing, viewed through different sets of beliefs?

[I Hate All Life]

Well, aren't they the same thing, viewed through different sets of beliefs?

Um, no.

(But you are kidding, right?)

[PhantomStranger]

Yeah, of course I'm kidding, hence the
But think about it for a second. What if the Labyrinth and the Black Spiral WERE the same thing? (and yes, I'm still kidding and throwing silly questions and hypotheses about )

This post has been edited by PhantomStranger: 01 September 2006 - 11:26 AM

[Annael]

Interesting point: you could say you have three spirit worlds, right? The Umbra (all the layers), the Shadowlands (all those layers), and the Dreaming (three layers there, too).

Each one of 'em has a labyrinth. The Umbra has Malfeas--the Black Spiral. The Shadowlands, of course, has the Labyrinth, and the Dreaming has the Cat's Cradle. I always got a very powerful sense that, while they weren't exactly the same place, they were all closely connected. In a sense, I guess you might say that they all exist in the same place on different levels, all reflections of something deeper--maybe the Wyrm and the tangle it's trapped in. The knots of the Tapestry wrapped around it run through all reality, after all, not just bits in the Umbra.

[sandchigger]

All mazes meet in the middle, Annael.