[Rob_Justice]

Ok, on my first little read of the DtF book when I got it, I had one question that I couldn't figure out.

We've all had a good group, that one bad player spoiles the game in. Now, with Demon, those beings are pretty damn powerful (esp. if you just want High Torment effects) so how the hell are you guys keeping your players from Powergamming the living hell out of that system?

My group ran mixed games (Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, ect all in one game) but we always excluded Demon because... well... one Demon who decides to be a dick can destory a whole game it seems.

I understand that "If you have mature, responsible, role-players this shouldn't be a problem." but you all know that getting a group together of 100% GREAT RPers is easier said then done. So what happens when your Demon decides to take everything out? I'd hate to stop a game and bitch out a player for powergaming.

[Parakoos]

In short, yes, the Fallen are very very powerful. If having such a character in a game will ruin the power balance, then yeah, it might be a problem. But hell, you can always 'cripple' the character in some way that makes him less powerful. Done right, it might be something that really makes the character stand out and make him more interesting.

But yes, if you are a ST and you plan to have a Vampire and a Demon in the same game, you might want to plan a bit so one (the Vampire) won't feel 'left out' or something, since the Demon will probably be more powerful. I am sure it can be done great, it will just take some more effort.

[Rob_Justice]

Well, I wanted to make sure I didn't have any demon misconceptions

So, what are some ways a GM can cripple a bloody DEMON?

[Parakoos]

I was hoping you wouldn't be asking that.

One thing is to in some way 'cripple' the mortal body. There are lots of discussion about if a paralysed mortal who get possessed would be able to walk again. Well, the verdict this far pretty much is "whatever is best for the story, goes".

Another thing is to say that something went wrong with the possession and that the orignial soul is still in there, creating some kind of trouble for the Demon like loss of control or a nagging voice in his mind. A good alternative to that one is to say that the pushed-out soul of the possessed mortal lingers on as a Wraith. A very pissed of Wraith that wants it's body back! (would imagine you'd like that one )

Also, he could suffer from bad connection from his time in Hell or before. Maybe somebody knows his True Name, thus have tremendous leverage over the Demon.

Or maybe make him even more troubled by holy ground and prayers...

I am sure there are a thousand ways to customize a Fallen to make him less powerfull.

[Rob_Justice]

Another thing is to say that something went wrong with the possession and that the orignial soul is still in there, creating some kind of trouble for the Demon like loss of control or a nagging voice in his mind.

LOL! You pretty much just said: "Give the Demon a Shadow."

(((for those of you non-wraith-nerds that might not be as funny...)))

[Parakoos]

Well, I simply looooove the shadow in Wraith so why not!

But there is a character in the Demon trilogy that is in a similar position. Also, if I'm going to do some advertising for the Demon Trilogy (that is some of the greatest fiction I've EVER read!), there is a Wraith in there that was marvelously well done and who really made me realise how cool they are... She doesn't play a major role, but she pops up every once in a while and she's cooool! At one point she uses her Arcanoi in such a fantastic way I could stop marvelling at the thought for days!

[Rob_Justice]

You could sell my drugs if you told me it was Wraith related... guess I'm getting the Demon fictions!

[Bogieman]

I've read Lucifer's Shadow and I want the trilogy.

Anyway - disable the fallen with their own Torment. It's a bit like the vampiric Beast. The more power-crazed they become, the more they're using Lore etc, and thus they're tapping into their demonic side rather than human... This in turn leads to a rise in both Legacy and Torment. And characters with high Torment (like those with low Path ratings in vampire) burn themselves out pretty quickly.

If you can't enforce this strongly enough, then start dishing out permanent Torment points rather than temporary. It makes the character think much faster about what they're becoming. No one wants to play a demon who's so blinded by hatred and fear of the Abyss that he can't think straight enough to walk/talk/act like a human. He'll get his power, but he'll also get an inability to blend in, and as a result he'll be sucked back into Hell quicker than you can say oh-god-no-no-no-not-there-again.

[Parakoos]

You could sell my drugs if you told me it was Wraith related... guess I'm getting the Demon fictions!

In that case, I'm guessing Orpheus is high on your wish list? Drugs AND Wraith! :$$

Yes, get the fiction. Not sure if you should read it before or after the core book though. Think you at least should have read the background story first, but the rest could also be good. Doesn't really matter I guess, the trilogy is great!

[Parakoos]

Anyway - disable the fallen with their own Torment.

Not sure that is such a good idea. If you throw a lot of torment on the character, he will become a very evil and destructive force that will start dishing out very powerful area effect Lores that will both hurt and piss of the other characters. Also, I'm assuming the character group Rob was thinking of wasn't going to be a saddistical Sabbath oriented group...

[Bogieman]

That's true, but then again, most fallen characters are on Earth trying to stop the powerful and evil demons (either Earthbound or other fallen) so if a fellow player turns, they should have no problem in dealing with him. In fact the storyteller could provide some neat little rituals that would exorcise him from his host into a new one, perhaps "resetting" his Torment due to the new flood of mortal memories and experiences. By this time, perhaps the player will have reconsidered his actions...

[Rob_Justice]

That's true, but then again, most fallen characters are on Earth trying to stop the powerful and evil demons (either Earthbound or other fallen) so if a fellow player turns, they should have no problem in dealing with him.

The problem is that I'm not talking about running a Demon game, I'm talking Mixed WoD (Vampire, Mage, Wraith, Demon, ect) all in one and the problems letting Demons run with the other systems.

Plus, when you have someone with Lore of Flames go "Joe's character pissed me off. High Torment. Let the whole party burn." Thats what I have issues with.

The question isn't how can I keep a bad player from messing up alot, its how do I prevent a sudden outburst.

[Parakoos]

Why would you? Let them all burn!!!

Seriously, how do you normally deal with sudden outbursts? Because a sudden attack from pretty much any WW charachter will have devestating effects right?

[Bogieman]

Yeah... I don't see how you can change things like that except telling the player to sit down and shut up (assuming of course that he doesn't have a good reason for blowing things up).

[Rob_Justice]

How do I normaly deal with out bursts? I let them happen, a little inner party turmoil is always fun... unless its a demon destorying the entire part

[Parakoos]

Yeah... I don't see how you can change things like that except telling the player to sit down and shut up (assuming of course that he doesn't have a good reason for blowing things up).

Every reason to blow things up is a good reason.

And rob, I don't think you will have to worry, the Fallen are dangerous but not THAT dangerous. And as the ST you can always tweak things so that even if he does have an outburst, that your party doesn't get totally screwed. Hell, I think everyone will understand that it is for the best of the story that you do so.

Demon characters are so deep and interesting that I definetly think they would add to a crossove rather than destroy it...

[Azrael The 7th Murderer]

Well, I may be a bit late to say anything, but I would suggest putting a little drama in the power used. i.e. (using the lore of flames high-torment example) letting the players know that all of a sudden the area around them got a little hotter, just in time for the characters to try and realise what the Hell is going on. Either that or have someone prepare a sort of "taming of the demon" elixir and splash him/her with it when they notice it is about to do something painful to them.

[Jagash]

Well, the power level of demons arnt quite as extreme as you might think. Yes, with lore of flame you can go nuts and toast the party entire, but other chars can do the same or worse. Garou? Umm, dead party. Hermetic's do kinda have a rote that paralyzes the enemy then toasts them for their troubles.

Not to mention the sheer stupidity of toasting your palls, with great power and possibly doubling as thralls. Oh, and if that isnt enough the other PC's have deep power-structures behind them. Every canite has a sire and Garou elders are nasty bastards.

[Gio]

In that situation, Lore of Celestials 5 is your best friend...

[Gio]

But demons are really easy to keep under control, however you want to do it, without resorting to underhand tactics like fiddling the rules...

Example 1; Your demon plans on toasting the party, but oh look, there's a bunch of mortals... straight away you can be raising the difficulty for his evocation as high as you like.

Example 2; No mortals around? Fair enough, a more powerful demon has taken an interest in him or the rest of the troupe, and that Demon has access to Hand of God...

Example 3; No more powerful demons around? Hunters will make his life difficult, especially with it costing double any faith he spends... Make the scene of his nastiness the spot for an imbuing: Hunters tend to be imbued in groups, and with powers above and beyond what they're later able to call on (this works especially well if you agree with what seems to be the predominant view; that of hunters being imbued by a pair of loyalist angels...)


On top of those, there are ways of keeping tabs on him in general..... He's a bastard and ravages his thralls constantly for the extra dice? Oh look, they've been mentally raped... I don't think the odd suicide would be out of the question.
When he finds his actions causing his daily faith stream to dry up, he might reign himself in.