[Dolston]

Alright,

I have been chatting with the otehr STs of my LARP (www.dolston.ca) about adjustments to the Animalism Discipline, more specifically Subsume the Spirit & Drawing Out the Beast. The main concern about these powers is that anyone who buys them really doesn't get to use them.

Subsume the Spirit is difficult to handle in a live action environment as it is a bitch to portray in some way other than a "you see" statement or tag, it allows for a variation of ghoul-suiting and prevents the character from interacting at the session in away that adds anything to the game.

Drawing Out the Beast has mechanics that are a pain in the ass and makes another character frenzy which rarely makes the game any better. In general, it is just a stupid power.

The goal is to replace the powers to make Animalism more useful. The criteria to do this are as follows.

1 - Requires little to no ST involvement or adjudication
2 - Is interesting, useful and fun. Is not boorish, boring or broken.
3 - Fits within the theme of the discipline
4 - Does not add more layers of "you see this" or additional hand symbols.

It is alright to drop higher level powers into the level 4 and 5 powers (we have actually used this method with other discipline sets), take the powers from other sources (related disciplines, gifts, etc) or make one up on your own.

Current ideas for Level 4 are...
Conquer the Beast - LotN Camarilla Guide without the part about being able to regain control of an uncontrolled frenzy.
Good: useful, has a risk to go with the benefit, requires no ST intervention, builds on previous power.
Bad: Predominately combat related.
Species Speech - LotN Camarilla Guide
Good: More powerful version of earlier power, fits theme nicely
Bad: Makes earlier power almost completely useless, not of much use at the game itself, requires the STs

Current idea for Level 5...
Predator's Mastery - Abombewe 5 from Faith & Fire with the added notation that you can not do something innately self-destructive like Dominate has.
Good: Cool, Stylish, Thematically appropriate
Bad: Powerful since there is no generational restriction on Animalism like Dominate has.

Your job is to poke holes in our current ideas, offer suggestions and generally help us find some good solutions to our current quandary.

[Luxifer]

To be honest, I have seen both these powers used to clever and useful storytelling purpose.

Including one time making someone frenzy to get them in enough trouble to cause them to be blood-hunted. It was an astute political move since the character was on low humanity and considered a danger anyway.

Subsume the beast has been used many times to spy on people in the court (I've seen people use it on cockroaches and insects to be a fly on the wall).

Angelus

[Dolston]

To be honest, I have seen both these powers used to clever and useful storytelling purpose.

I never said they couldn't be. I said they are pretty useless in an MET environment. They are either disprutive, allow for bad gaming, increase the "you see" factor which breaks the mood or doesn't get used at the game session.

Including one time making someone frenzy to get them in enough trouble to cause them to be blood-hunted. It was an astute political move since the character was on low humanity and considered a danger anyway.

Killing a character is not a good thing, ever. Sometimes it is necessary. To me this is an example of why Drawing Out the Beast should be removed from the game.

Subsume the beast has been used many times to spy on people in the court (I've seen people use it on cockroaches and insects to be a fly on the wall).

Not sure where your court is held but a dog, cat, tiger, bat, etc, etc in nearly every place (ie 98% of them) I have run a game in an animal would be noticed. An animal who is hanging around a place with vampires and not freaking out is not only going to catch notice but should be removed if not killed since it is obviously a spy.

[Luxifer]

Again, insects. VERY had to notice. In general, however, animals don't freak out to vampires just cause of the beast. If they're low on humanity, sure.

[Tuesday]

In general, however, animals don't freak out to vampires just cause of the beast.

Actually, they do. That's right in the book - animals don't like vampires.

[Dolston]

Again, insects. VERY had to notice.

Umm, how are you defining animal here? If you are using the definition on Kingdom Animalia how do you lock your gaze on, say, a spider which hav 8 eyes on average and can not distinguish much more than dark and not dark let alone use these eyes for spying?

[Luxifer]

Umm, how are you defining animal here? If you are using the definition on Kingdom Animalia how do you lock your gaze on, say, a spider which hav 8 eyes on average and can not distinguish much more than dark and not dark let alone use these eyes for spying?

Page 154 MET

penalty for targeting insects -3

"Note that any Animalism power that requires eye contact is made more diffi cult if the subject
does not stand still or is not otherwise immobilized. If the animal in question moves about,
the draw to initiate the relevant power suffers a -1 penalty in addition to all others listed."

"-3 The animal is an insect or fish."

As an example of inter-relation between insects and Animalism I point to the Melissidae bloodline.

page 110 of Bloodlines the Legendary.

"Melissid Animalism
Unlike most other Kindred, the Melissidae are adept
at affecting insects, specifi cally swarming insects, such as
ants, termites, wasps, hornets and bees — the Melissadae
gain a +2 bonus to affect insects instead of the standard
–3 penalty as described on pp. 116–118 of Vampire:
The Requiem. The Melissadae are, conversely, less able
to affect other kinds of animals, suffering a –1 penalty
for uses of Animalism that affect creatures other than
insects. Swarms of insects controlled by a Melissid count
as a single creature for the purposes of Animalism."

As well as the Devotion "Small Witness" on page 112 of same book.

As for animals not reacting to the beast, Mea Culpa I had misunderstood a section of it.

However, my original point still stands that insects are valid targets of animalism. With Subsume the beast you should be able to perform the same feat as Small Witness just with difficulty.

If you don't think it gels, just make it as a viable alternative for the purposes of LARP, or else allow a common Devotion to exist with Auspex 1 or something that lets someone with Animalism 4 sense the insect (but in a weaker way to small witness).

[Jagash]

Ahh, you should have mentioned this is for Masquarade Ryan.

[Dolston]

Ahh, you should have mentioned this is for Masquarade Ryan.

I specified Faith & Fire and LotN Cam on top of the fact the powers have different names in Requiem than in Masquerade. I also routinely speak about how I will not touch Requiem as it is quickly becoming an abomination equivalent to Dirty Secrets.

And, really, it doesn't matter since the same issues with the discipline exist in Requiem as Masquerade. The powers are shitty in a live action environment.

[Jagash]

*nods* Still, Luxifer is quite right that Requiem has a bunch of precident for the insect vector. It's just that masquarade doesn't. I also admit my relative ignorance on Requiem; it's the single nWoD gameline i don't have and am not interested in.

[Dolston]

*nods* Still, Luxifer is quite right that Requiem has a bunch of precident for the insect vector. It's just that masquarade doesn't. I also admit my relative ignorance on Requiem; it's the single nWoD gameline i don't have and am not interested in.

Either way, this thread is being quickly derailed arguing the mechanics of the disciplines. I don't care about the mechanics of the discipline since I want it replaced.

So please, everyone, stop arguing the rules of the discipline or start another thread.

[Nepher]

But Requiem has good ideas in it, even for Animalism. The Level 5 Animalism power, while close to drawing out the beast has other, more friendly application.

In short, it allow characters to provoke frenzy in other, but also to stop frenzy in other, in self, or provoke frenzy for self. A kind of Beast mastery. I don't know if it would fit into your game, but it's not so powerful, and allow variety other than character killing.

For level 4, I suggest Symbiosis, a Auspex 4 Animalism 1 devotion I created a long time ago. In short, it create a telepathic bound with an animal, sharing thought, perception and action with it. A bird can watch your back, leaving you with with no possible surprise attack, a dog can attack coordinated with you (additional attack with the dog's stats) or allow you to smell a track, you can scry a location trought a spider's eyes,... The possibility are wide.

[Tuesday]

The problem with that is that you've now got Varsuvius' Disease: an invisible animal companion who only matters when everyone remembers that they matter, that aren't really there. While it's better than removing yourself and *replacing* yourself with an animal or insect, it's still bad for a LARP.

[zenten]

The problem with that is that you've now got Varsuvius' Disease: an invisible animal companion who only matters when everyone remembers that they matter, that aren't really there. While it's better than removing yourself and *replacing* yourself with an animal or insect, it's still bad for a LARP.

How is it any worse than the level 1 and 2 powers?

[Dolston]

How is it any worse than the level 1 and 2 powers?

It isn't. But levels one and two aren't any good either. They are just significantly less relevant.