[kaworu naguisa]

Well, here goes another divergion from the main book.

I like to know the opinion of you guys concerning openning the possibility of mages giving sleepers the chance of surpassing the quiescence by extending the connection their own awakened souls have inducing planned mystical quests and mysterie plays to those they see fit.
Instead of only being awakened through random events in unpredictable moments of awareness, i'm really thinking about letting mages to spread through their own devices with the gift of sacrifeced gnosis from a mentor to his or her prospective apprentice. At first i would maintain the idea of independent awakenings open, but i think they would be even more uncommon.

It's a major change in how the setting works, and would completely add a new importance to the orders and how they opperate. What do you think about it? how it should work systemwise and in therms of setting and culture?

[Christian A]

In a way, it's already part of the setting. Awakenings are triggered, in some cases, by exposure to magic. And there's also the strong possibility of the potential to Awaken as a mage being hereditary. Both things, as well as the fact that preventing an Awakening is an act of hubris, imply that mages have means of causing Awakenings.

Also, let's not forget that it's the goal of an entire order to free as many Sleepers as possible. It stands for reason to assume that the théarchs have a few methods of triggering Awakenings that are at least somewhat reliable.

Now, as for your system/setting tweak, I'm fond of the idea that intentionally causing Awakenings should be a task not to be taken lightly, both because of the necessary amount of work as well as the danger to the prospective Awakened. Triggering an Awakening should be difficult and dangerous to the Sleeper's physical, mental and moral health.

As for actual methods, I'm thinking stuff such as drug experiments, sending the prospective mage through lengthy, harrowing quests and mind-altering experiences, tampering with his soul, etc.

[Libra]

There are a number of spell effects already available which, to some extent, either suspend Sleepers' Disbelief or their Abyssal sympathies (in other words, they do not trigger Paradox when a Vulgar spell effect is cast in their vicinity for as long as the spell over them is active).

Querulous Minds (Fate •• + Prime •) from the Guardians of the Veil sourcebook picks out those mortals who have already had a brush with the supernatural. Further investigation can determine if it's the right sort of contact with the supernatural - a Sleeper on the verge of Awakening, say, and not some poor schmuck who just had the top two pints of his blood sucked out of him by a vampire.

Swarm of Locusts (Fate •••••) suspends Sleepers' Disbelief for as long as the Fortean Storm effects last - events are just so weird already that nobody'll think twice of that strange man in the purple robe in the corner chanting gibberish and waving his arms about - they'll be too busy ducking the frogs raining from the sky.

Eyes of the Awakened (Prime ••••) pulls the veil of the Lie away from the Sleepers' eyes and forces them to see the world as the Awakened see it. They can't affect magic with Disbelief as long as the spell is on them.

Finally, Enforce Paradigm (Mind •••) in the Tome of the Mysteries has the opposite effect - Sleepers don't affect the likelihood of a Paradox, although they could affect a spell through Disbelief (a good reason why this and Eyes of the Awakened should both be learned, so they can be cast at the same time, or one after thr other).

These spells don't automatically turn Sleepers into the Awakened - but they can set them up for a future Awakening, if they are hit by the spells enough times. An alchemical spray, maybe, or something in their food ...

Ultimately, though, the Awakening comes to the Sleeper as an act of will - possibly the first real act of will they've ever had in their lives. Awakening can't be forced upon a Sleeper: they have to see that the world is a Lie, and then choose The Truth. Otherwise, they'll just think they're going mad ... and eventually, they will.

[agasha kumiko]

Christian and Libra pretty much covered it from both the mechanical and setting angle. And just to add a bit to the mix there is a reason why there is such a love/hate relationship between the Silver Ladder and the Guardians of the Veil. The latter knows that it is more than possible to awaken sleepers just by exposure to the Mysteries, let alone it being more than inferred that there are rituals for just that purpose. Then we get into all the goodness of the ToM with their fun spells, alchemical stuff and the like.

I will give you one guess who would make the most use of such rituals, alchemical knowledge and/or tracking Sleepwalker lineages, and your only choice is the Silver Ladder. If we are talking about purposely awakening normal humans.

[Libra]

I will give you one guess who would make the most use of such rituals, alchemical knowledge and/or tracking Sleepwalker lineages, and your only choice is the Silver Ladder. If we are talking about purposely awakening normal humans.

Whereas, if I recall correctly, the Guardians actually Awaken a greater proportion of Sleepers in their Labyrinth than just about any other Order can - so much so that they can almost afford to lose the vast majority of them, who immediately gravitate towards the other Orders, just so that what's left, the pick of them, the sneakiest, nosiest, most ruthless of them, can be shown the Veils.

I've been actually thinking about a situation where a mage might want to deliberately Awaken a Sleeper, rather like how a vampire has to Embrace, and a Promethean has to make a new Created as part of their Pilgrimage.

There is, and should be, no spell in the entire annals of magic, lost or otherwise, that can induce a Sleeper to Awaken. It should be a straightforward contested roll of Gnosis against the Sleeper's Resolve + Composure; and the Sleeper must understand what is happening: in other words, no m age can Awaken an unaware or unwilling subject. This makes Sleepwalkers and Proximi ideal (+2 and +4 to the Gnosis roll).

I was thinking of dice pool modifiers, including modifiers for Morality, Wisdom, use of a soul stone, successes in Meditation dice pools, the Meditative Mind Merit, modifiers for the local environment (e.g. is the Awakening taking place in the middle of a Fortean Storm effect or a temporary Demesne) and the condition of mage ans Sleeper (is the Sleeper under the influence of "Eyes of the Awakened" and/or "Enforce Paradigm", is the mage drunk or suffering a Derangement etc), whether the mage or the Sleeper indulged in their Vices and Virtues recently, or if the mage had somehow been touched by the Abyss recently and so on ... but then, I thought nah. Just wing it.

[agasha kumiko]

Whereas, if I recall correctly, the Guardians actually Awaken a greater proportion of Sleepers in their Labyrinth than just about any other Order can - so much so that they can almost afford to lose the vast majority of them, who immediately gravitate towards the other Orders, just so that what's left, the pick of them, the sneakiest, nosiest, most ruthless of them, can be shown the Veils.

I would say it is very possible that's true given we have no information to prove it wrong by the other orders. It does make sense though because in a weird sort of way the GoV is much more likely to have contact with sleepers than the others.

The Silver Ladder is too busy with their political and power games. The Mysteriem are far too much like your typical professor (in an ivory tower). The Adamantine Arrow is too busy serving others to focus on sleepers. The other that would seem to have alot of contact with sleepers are the Free Council but I could argue that they are more fractualized than normal so you can't really be too general with them.

Anyway one of the best ways to get a person to want something is to make it exclusive and this is what the whole creed of the GoV is built on. Magic is only for the most worthy. So by funneling sleepers through the Labyrinth it makes for a perfect testing ground that winnows the chaff from the wheat moreso than many other methods.

[Nopp]

I've been actually thinking about a situation where a mage might want to deliberately Awaken a Sleeper, rather like how a vampire has to Embrace, and a Promethean has to make a new Created as part of their Pilgrimage.

There is, and should be, no spell in the entire annals of magic, lost or otherwise, that can induce a Sleeper to Awaken. It should be a straightforward contested roll of Gnosis against the Sleeper's Resolve + Composure; and the Sleeper must understand what is happening: in other words, no m age can Awaken an unaware or unwilling subject. This makes Sleepwalkers and Proximi ideal (+2 and +4 to the Gnosis roll).

A sort of Matrix type thing? "I have shown you the truth, if you accept it eat this here blue pill." I can actually see it fit. The real trial, however, would be trying to find a suitably open-minded individual. And it gives a mechanical benefit to the Proximi merit.

[Libra]

It does, doesn't it?

Of course, such an activity would have to be incredibly hubristic - a sin against Wisdom to want to buck the trend and force the Truth upon someone - so degeneration rolls all around, especially if the result is a Dramatic Failure and the Sleeper goes permanently insane, or even dies.

This also leads to the possibility of using the same dice pool to actively prevent a Sleeper from Awakening - a crime already listed as a pretty hefty sin of blindness. Perhaps such a deed would be necessary to prevent a truly monstrous Sleeper, e.g. a child molester, serial killer, Republican from, ooh, directly Awakening to an Abyssal Watchtower ...

[Nopp]

Is hubristic even a word? What level sin do you think forcing an Awakening is? I'd say its "hubristic", but not earth shatteringly, demon-baby-secreting evil so it would probably be only 4 or 5.

[Libra]

Is hubristic even a word? What level sin do you think forcing an Awakening is? I'd say its "hubristic", but not earth shatteringly, demon-baby-secreting evil so it would probably be only 4 or 5.

Good guess. I'd say it'd be 5 if you were Awakening a Sleepwalker or Proximus, about 4 for a Sleeper - the latter about the same level of sin as making your own soul stone, because you are, in effect, shaping a soul that still believes it doesn't need to be shaped.

[Nopp]

That makes sense. I may actually use this rule if I get a Mage game running (if I can get any game running right now I'd be impressed though ). I wouldn't make it a widespread ability though. While no learned spell or ritual should be able to do this, I don't think one would just be able to go around door-knocking trying to convince people that magic is real and then awakening them. The secret to it would have to be uncovered from some dusty tome or achieved through some form of supernatural epiphany. Maybe a Journey into Astral Space would uncover the secret to forcing Awakenings?

[kaworu naguisa]

I was thinking of allowing a mage to try to stir another's soul through a spell, but not an specific one. Maybe a level five spell available to all arcana that opened one's soul to the incursion of the casters watchtower. It would cost a mage a willpower dot and were subject to grave penalties for not being from the watchtower most ressonant with the sleepers soul, the sleeper not being ready and wisdom of the mage. what do you think?
I was thinking about including the usage of this spell as common as normal awakenings but used carefully on people that would either fit perfectly on a given order or that other mages really cared about. It would be strictly controlled and it's target studied because of it's probability of creating banishers, the mad or even simply harming a sleepers soul unprepared for the mystery play it unleashes.

what do you think about it?

[Nopp]

Its a good idea, but I'm with Libra in that forced awakenings should not be a spell. I prefer the gnosis vs Resolve + Composure method. However, I think it should cost a Willpower dot as per your method, and I think it would send the subject on the awakening to the Watchtower that resonates most with their soul. You could possibly force it to conform to your watchtower, but doing so would have the attempt at a -2 penalty to the Gnosis roll and increase the severity of the sin by one level. A Success indicates the subject engages in awakening, an Exceptional Success makes it easier for the subject to actually Awaken, giving him some sort of guide to the Watchtower or somesuch. A failure means the subject is unaffected. If the Mage fails and the opposing Resolve + Composure roll fails, the entire debarcle forces a Morality roll on the subject to avoid gaining a mild derangement. The same if either party get a Dramatic Failure. The abilty can only be obtained by learning it from a primordial denizen of the Dreamtime, who know the most ancient of the powers of the soul.

How about that system?

[kaworu naguisa]

Its a good idea, but I'm with Libra in that forced awakenings should not be a spell. I prefer the gnosis vs Resolve + Composure method. However, I think it should cost a Willpower dot as per your method, and I think it would send the subject on the awakening to the Watchtower that resonates most with their soul. You could possibly force it to conform to your watchtower, but doing so would have the attempt at a -2 penalty to the Gnosis roll and increase the severity of the sin by one level. A Success indicates the subject engages in awakening, an Exceptional Success makes it easier for the subject to actually Awaken, giving him some sort of guide to the Watchtower or somesuch. A failure means the subject is unaffected. If the Mage fails and the opposing Resolve + Composure roll fails, the entire debarcle forces a Morality roll on the subject to avoid gaining a mild derangement. The same if either party get a Dramatic Failure. The abilty can only be obtained by learning it from a primordial denizen of the Dreamtime, who know the most ancient of the powers of the soul.

How about that system?

I'm afraid of letting any young mage to have the ability to awaken others, and i'd rather make it a common ability, not something that should be secretly learned from a spirit or such, so the arcana requirement. But then we could only make the mage roll his pure gnosis, what, with a solid system of bonus and penalties would take it out of the range of apprentice or unexperienced mages. The idea of the watchtower could work the other way around. Maybe the mage gained one bonus die if his target ressonates with his own watchtower.

Awakening other's
Mage spends a willpower dot and rolls his gnosis.
+1 the mage has wisdom of 9 or more
+1 die if the target is a proximi, comes from a family with "powerful blood" or deals with fallen magic or the target already had many contacts with the supernal
+1 die if the target ressonates with the mage's watchtower
+1/+2 dice for at least a full year of trainning and preparation for the target, depending on how intensive and how much dedication he had.
---
-1 the target has had no dealing with the supernal or is skeptical about anything supernatural
-1 the mage has wisdom of 2 or less
-1 for each derrangement the target has
-1 for each successive attempt of awaken the same target
-1 if the target was touched by the abyss
-1 if the target or is under the influence of the vinculum
-2 if the target is a ghoul or wolfblooded
-3 if the target was a promethian or is currently being ridden by a ghost or spirit

dramatic failure: The mage is plagued by the abyss as he tries to reach the supernal realms and the person he tried to awaken is open to abyssal possession and torment. Few ways other then a future attempt of awakening or death can stop his torment. There is also a chance that an acamoth or abyssal entitie manifest itself in the target's body.

failure: The mage suffer a paradoxal backslash with success equal to the 1's he got in the roll. The tagert is plagued by nightmares and delusions for a month.

success: The target is carried to a mystery play where he can try tor each the watchtower.

exceptional success: Not only the target is carried to the watchtower but also he is guided to it's supernal light by the mage's daemon or some kind of entity that easies the passage.



*After being taken to the supernal the target must roll his morality ratingin order to keep himself centered during the trip and writte his name on the watchtower.
+3 if the mage had an exceptional success conducing the awakening
+1 if the target ennacted his virtue in the day he is awakened
+1 I the target was well instructed about what would happen to him
---
-1 if the character ennacted his vice in the day he awakened
-1 if the target has derrangements
-1 if the is skeptical or refuses the magic offered to him
-2 if the mage who induced the mystery play is touched by the abyss


dramatic failure: The target becomes one of the mad or is plagued by acamoth returning with abyssal predispositions and a derangement

failure: the target acquires a derangement and probably fears or despises the new world that's opening irself to him.

success: the target becomes a normal and sane mage.

Exceptional success: the target actually becomes a quite powerfull mage begining his new life with an extra dot of gnosis due to the enlightenement he achieves in his contact with the supernal.

This post has been edited by kaworu naguisa: 21 December 2006 - 04:09 PM

[Nopp]

I agree with all that accept for the making it common. I really don't think you should have mages walking up to people and going, "hey, wanna know something awesome? Magic is real! See, I'll make you hallucinate and then you can do it too!" Maybe an Astral Journey to the Dreamtime is a bit much, maybe just the Tenemos. But I think Astral Journey would be the best way to learn the power, considering the Mystery Play is an Astral Journey of its own accord.

[Libra]

Making it a Lost Art of Atlantis is easily enough done. This is one of those abilities, like making a soul stone, which could be inherent to every mage ... except it isn't, because so few mages are aware of the possibility of it being done.

The player characters could be the exception. Perhaps after a couple of Fortean Storms and castings of "Eyes of the Awakened" lead to spontaneous Awakenings and a couple of new Sleepwalkers and Proximi, they could begin to figure out that they could also do this little trick, and start raiding the libraries following rumours of how it might have been done, Back In The Day.

There'd be next to nothing about the ability pre - Fall, not because of the lack of information, but because pre - Fall Atlanteans just seemed to spontaneously Awaken without requiring any sort of intervention from mages, or indeed from anyone. Post - Fall, that's a different thing. This could be listed in some incredibly early documents, detailing desperate early mages' attempts to recruit from the ranks of the Sleepers.

With the Guardians' accepting their appointed role and the development of the Labyrinth and the Veils, the Guardians no longer had need of this ancient technique, and it would have fallen into disfavour, and ultimately forgotten. The other Orders would develop their own recruitment methods, and one by one they let go of the knowledge of this technique as they began to get back on their feet when the trickle of new Awakenings became a more or less steady flow, even if such Awakenings were a faltering trickle compared to the flood they once had been.

Last to let go would have been the Silver Ladder: they needed Kings and Generals, and such always seemed to be more reluctant to Awaken than most - although one of the more notable spontaneous royal Awakenings is a Sleeper legend of a Prince who renounced his title to sit under a tree, Awakened and thereby founded a whole Eastern religion.

And now, as the rate of new Awanekings seems to be lower than it ever has been, and even seems to be steadily decreasing each year, perhaps this is a good time to dust off those mouldy old tomes and start digging for that information. This, of course, leads to long forgotten Astral Beacons left burning in the Temenos centuries ago, to long abandoned Astral Colleges, and to the challenges that lay within.

And now I've tied in Secrets of the Ruined Temple, and given you something to think about, for which you can actually put that book to use now.

[Nepher]

Or just an arcana requierement similar to the construction of a Desmene. I'd say Mastery of the two Ruling Arcana of the caster's path.

This is not so common, and the price of failure is high. It should also not be known widely, as Libra suggested. It is not because it's written into the book that a mage should know how to use it instinctively...

[Libra]

Even easier.

At Gnosis 3, a mage can join a Legacy; at Gnosis 4, they're able to create their own Legacy. Perhaps the ability to shape a Sleeper's soul enough to forge an Awakening cannot be performed with a Gnosis any less than 4, because the mage won't have been able to develop the ability to shape a soul unaided until they reach that level of power.

Awakening Sleepers and Proximi is commensurately easier: the mage needs Gnosis of at least 3 to Awaken one of those.

The knowledge of how to do so is still, however, a Lost Art, requiring some considerable research - and probably some Astral exploration.

[zenten]

I think you should be able to force a Sleeper to enact a Mystery Play, but doing so would be much less likely to actually produce a proper awakening, and much more likely to produce one of the Mad than a regular awakening, since the soul isn't ready for it.

[Nopp]

Even easier.

At Gnosis 3, a mage can join a Legacy; at Gnosis 4, they're able to create their own Legacy. Perhaps the ability to shape a Sleeper's soul enough to forge an Awakening cannot be performed with a Gnosis any less than 4, because the mage won't have been able to develop the ability to shape a soul unaided until they reach that level of power.

Awakening Sleepers and Proximi is commensurately easier: the mage needs Gnosis of at least 3 to Awaken one of those.

The knowledge of how to do so is still, however, a Lost Art, requiring some considerable research - and probably some Astral exploration.

I'd say thats the best way to do it actually. Willpower dot spent, Gnosis roll, penalised and bonused with the chart above by kaworu naguisa, with a Requirement of at least 3 Gnosis for Sleepwalkers and Proximi and 4 for Sleepers. Doing so is a Wisdom 5 act of hubris and it requires research and possibly Astral Exploration to achieve.


We all happy with that system?