[Spikey]

At least up until Promethean which started to instill me with confidence again.
Enough that I might even get the book.

Gotta admit I have not had the chance to read Promethean yet. This is based on everything from revised oWoD to the first three nWoD games.

I keep buying the bloody books in the vain hope that they'll get back to the old days of great writing. A few still make me feel like the money was well spent, but its only a few. Even when the WoD was spiralling down the pan, Revised Werewolf didn't suck, and stuff with Ethans name on it kept what little hope I had burning. Along with Matt McFarland, Jackie Cassada and Nickey rea to name a few others.

Should Promethean and Changeling the Lost reverse the trend, I'll be the first to acknowledge it. Credit where it is due. If I keep shelling out money I must clearly be open to the possibility of agood game line showing its head again.

[Ethan Skemp]

The only real problem with the line is that its an absolute that fails to acknowledge that Mr Skemp didn't personally write every aspect of Forsaken all by himself.

More true to say that the fault isn't in the people but what they are forced to work with.

Yeah, like me.

It is not just possible that I happen to like some of the things that you don't — that I have written some of the things you hate, or encouraged other people to write the same — it is downright likely. I am in the not entirely inconceivable position of being able to appreciate what I and my authors have written both in the old World of Darkness and the new; I can and do like two different things.

The problem I have with the "dreck" line is that it's unapologetically directly insulting to pretty much every professional and friend I've ever worked with. Is it "fair"? In that you're entitled to your opinion, sure. And that's about the only way in which it's fair. In all other respects, it's a venomous retort that reeks of some odd form of entitlement.

Please, stop paying me "compliments" like this. If you're going to slap insults on my co-workers, authors and friends with a three-foot brush, go ahead and slap them on me, too. It would be more factually accurate than pretending I am somehow divorced from all their work, instead of a part of it.

[rhiannon]

Fellas, please. So far this forum has been kept clear of in-fighting; let's keep it that way. Spikey is entitled to his opinion and the expression thereof unless it becomes profane/crosses a line, which it hasn't. Ethan is entitled to express his dislike of Spikey's opinion, as long as he doesn't cross a line. Neither one can order the other to stop.

For the record, I see it that Spikey is in no way violating our policy. Though it may cause hurt feelings, his opinions of any WW staff or freelancers and their work are equivalent to a critique of any author or director, any book or movie. There is no "personal" insult involved, the insults are directed at their professional persona. If he were to make some sort of threats, or do nothing but constant insulting (equivalent to spam), or refuse to explain/rationalize/defend his point of view, I would say something about it. But I don't believe you would have any problem getting him to give exact reasons and examples in a logical manner without any insulting remarks. In fact, he has probably done so at some point in time.

Lastly, this thread is about the subtitle of the game. Let's keep it on that subject.

[Spikey]

Sorry for derailing the thread C:tL people. Totally my bad.

If I might say in closing that Ethan makes a perfectly good point but I, as a reader with only the published authours names in the front of the books to go by, can only base my judgements on what I read. I pay close attention to who writes what and have a pretty strong opinion (or am very opinionated) on whose names is credited to the bad stuff and whose isn't. I see (real or not) distinct and clear patterns.

The only entirlement I believe I have, is to form my own opinions and for them to matter to me alone. That and the entitlement to voice them in an open forum. I'm only criticising whats in the open areana and if I was getting personal I'd deserve to be vilified and chastised. My opinions are aimd only at the body of work, not the individuals themselevs or there persona's.

But I do see the point that Ethan may not be comfortable of being attached to what I say, excluded from my dislike in a way that bad mouthes his friends and co workers. Its a perfectly fair request and I'll stop doing that as much as I am able.

So, yeah, mea cupla. appolgies. Peace.

[Christian A]

For the record, I see it that Spikey is in no way violating our policy.

Sorry about the further derailment, but - insulting people, whether they are working for White Wolf and posting as active members of this very board or not, used to be a violation of the policy when I was a moderator here, especially when coming from a praefectus. But this might have changed.

[Luxifer]

Guys, I specifically invited Ethan Skemp here to contribute to the Lost discussions.

I have a lot of respect for this author and the people who work at white wolf, and so I'm going to ask that you at least frame criticisms in a respectful manner.

By all means have your opinions, but I'm not going to tolerate derogatory opinions to any other member in my forum.

That's my sole warning, play nice.

Angelus

This post has been edited by Luxifer: 02 April 2007 - 04:46 PM

[rhiannon]

Sorry about the further derailment, but - insulting people, whether they are working for White Wolf and posting as active members of this very board or not, used to be a violation of the policy when I was a moderator here, especially when coming from a praefectus. But this might have changed.

I feel this must be addressed, then we have to get back on track.

We need to be careful here. The line between insulting an active/inactive member who happens to work at WW, and posting heated criticism of a writer and his works can be blurred very easily. Example, in a board dedicated to debating the films, "Peter Jackson sucks! His work is derivative, and he can't keep from interjecting political overtones in all his films. He's the worst film maker today" "You can't say that, he happens to be a member of this board, you are violating our policy of insulting another member." A writer, actor, artist has to develop a thick skin. They have to be able to deal heated and opinionated criticism of their work, their talent, and themselves. Google just about any entertainer and you will find in and amongst the fan entries, entries that roast them. But then again, while we may criticize Anne Rice and Stephen King however we want, as insulting or flaming as we want because they are public figures and also not members of this site, a lot of the writers of White Wolf are, and we should not insult other members. I think this is where some of the blurring comes in. As for me, I don't view much of what Spikey has said as personal insults, but insults regarding their work. It is true that much of his criticism comes off as flames and it would be better met if it were specific criticisms of specific details delivered in a neutral tone. Basically, we have to remember that while we can flame and insult entertainers as we review their work, a lot of White Wolf visit here or are members here. As it is too hard to keep up with which ones aren't members, just treat it that they all are. So criticize as is your right, but because they are members, keep it specific, intelligent, and neutral.

Tying those insults in with another's name is a different issue, however. Keep in mind that those he insulted haven't posted in this forum (only Mr. Skemp and Mrs. Hartley have), unless he literally meant everyone but Mr. Skemp. I don't think he meant Mrs Hartley, though. The comment that Mr. Skemp took offense at was a blanket insult, with his name thrown in as the exception. So Mr. Skemp wasn't the one being insulted, but I can see why it bothered him and he did have a legitimate issue. Because his name and praise of him appeared in the same sentence as criticism of his peers it could have given people the wrong impression (namely, one of endorsement) and caused some resentment between co-workers. I understand that he felt something needed to be done.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with how I see things, I feel that an issue such as this should not have become a direct public confrontation in this thread. If there needed to be words exchanged between these two members because what one said was upsetting to the other, it would have been better handled via pm. If the post was that offensive, hit the report button. But the confrontation between a White Wolf employee and a moderator of this board (devoted to White Wolf) did not need to play out right here, for everyone to view. It makes for a very sticky situation. This is why I handled it how I did, warn people to behave, not hand out any official warnings or slaps on the wrists, and basically get it out of this thread as quickly as possible.

Consequently, the matter was resolved. I warned people to keep it nice and get back on the track, and Spikey even apologized. It was over. Posting after the fact to criticize how I handled it could just fan the flames. Now I am not accusing you of wanting to do so, I am just saying it could have. From now on, once the argument is over and handled, if you have an issue with how it was handled, please pm me or Lux. It will still bring the matter to our attention, but without derailing the thread further or possibly starting up the argument all over. And I did ask a mod much higher than myself if I did alright, just to make sure, seeing as how I am new to this.




Now, the next post needs to be on topic. Here, I'll give you guys a place to start, since most people might be too nervous after all this to start off. Do you think the subtitle Lost deals more with a current state of being or a permanent one? Do the PCs start out in a Lost state of being and then seek through questing to transcend that state, like the Promethean seek to transcend being merely Created? Is it what they struggle against? Or, like the subtitle Forsaken implies, is it something they will always be?

EDIT: for clarity.

This post has been edited by rhiannon: 02 April 2007 - 06:50 PM

[Ethan Skemp]

But I do see the point that Ethan may not be comfortable of being attached to what I say, excluded from my dislike in a way that bad mouthes his friends and co workers. Its a perfectly fair request and I'll stop doing that as much as I am able.

Thanks, Spikey. That's all I ask.

To put a little extra perspective on why this is important to me, let's get back on topic. Changeling: The Lost? My idea. Love it or hate it, I'm the one who floated that suggestion out there and put effort into defending it to the rest of the creative crew, managers or not, pointing out why it was wrong. So if you dislike something about anything that has my name on it, always bear in mind that I just might be the exact person responsible, driving through something that I liked and you don't. That's why I want to share credit for the less popular stuff instead of being exempted: it's not necessarily a masochistic impulse, it just might be a desire for accuracy. It's fairer to all involved.

So there, back on-topic, and you have someone to point at for the subtitle.


(Whoops, posted that before rhiannon's post. Sorry about that. I will manage to be banned very quickly!)

This post has been edited by Ethan Skemp: 02 April 2007 - 06:50 PM

[rhiannon]

Mr. Skemp (just can't bring myself to be cheeky enough to call someone by their first name without permission),

It is perfectly alright. As someone who frequently makes long winded posts, I know what it is to take so long to reply that while you may have hit the reply button first, ten people have had their replies posted first.

So, moving on to what I ended my post with, can you tell us if Lost refers to a current or permanent state of being/mind? Or would that be giving too much away?

EDIT: for capitalization

This post has been edited by rhiannon: 02 April 2007 - 06:57 PM

[Vampir]

Well, I like it... Whether it's apropriate or not, I'll be able to tell after reading the core...

[Ethan Skemp]

Mr. Skemp (just can't bring myself to be cheeky enough to call someone by their first name without permission),

Please, be cheeky. Or permitted. Or something. I prefer my first name.

It is perfectly alright. As someone who frequently makes long winded posts, I know what it is to take so long to reply that while you may have hit the reply button first, ten people have had their replies posted first.

So, moving on to what I ended my post with, can you tell us if Lost refers to a current or permanent state of being/mind? Or would that be giving too much away?

Well, Lost refers to several things. On one hand, there's the out-and-out attempt to manipulate the reader by conjuring up a great number of associations. Lost Boys (and Girls). Lost souls. Hansel and Gretel, lost in the woods. Losing one's way. Loss, as a general theme. There are many ways to be lost, which may be part of some folks' distaste for the word, but I consider it a whopping great strength. Each chronicle is likely to feature three to six individual players' characters, plus a cast of Storyteller-controlled changelings, so there's room to massage different connotations as you like.

As the state as the changelings see it: I would hesitate to call it permanent, because at its heart it suggests the desire to find yourself, or to find a place in the world that is clearly yours and can't be taken from you. That goal is not something I would rule as impossible for changelings, though it's not easy.

The essence of trying to find your place after tragedy, to try regaining the things that were taken from you that you value, to build something new for yourself reflecting the person you've become, to figure out which is more important: that's the essence of a character's journey in a lot of fine and moving stories. Fuse that kind of modern interest in character development with the archetypes of myth, and I think you might have the basis of an interesting game.

[Kuroukaze]

Well damn, it got pretty exciting there for a moment.

Still; I think Lost is a wonderful name. It's not descriptive, but it dosn't have to be. In a lot of ways, Lost is like a Hemingway novel or good line art; it's simple, direct, and evocative. It sums up a lot of feelings, emotions, states of being...it's artistic. It's deeper then you think, broader then you know, and hidden behind a facade of simplicity...

Perfect for a Changeling title.