[rhiannon]

"It was also noted that it was confirmed that Arcadia is the same in this game and Mage." – from Eric Christian Berg’s WW forum notes of Jess Hartley’s reading at UBCon

"There will be the Fae's realm of Arcadia (NDA prevented any discussion of the relationship of Arcadia in C:tL and in M:tA) , but not a "Dreaming" as we know it from OWoD. An NWoD Changeling really wouldn't want to go into the Fae realm, as they escaped from the Fae for a reason, and why would they want to risk recapture?" – from GnTar’s Digital Dreaming notes of Jess Hartley’s reading at UBCon

discussion of this at WW forums

There are some good points made at the link above, some nice conjecture. So let's start the scuffle debate.

This post has been edited by rhiannon: 17 April 2007 - 08:10 PM

[Christian A]

The "Arcadia" thing has actually been mentioned a long time before, by John Snead. Well, the name at least.

...Changelings have nifty powers, they can do many things ordinary mortals can't, but many of them are deeply screwed up due to their experiences in Arcadia.

I'm not all that into horror in either literature and gaming, and I love the new changeling. It can be used for an excellent and creepy horror game (Justin's amazing fiction piece was pretty damned disturbing) as well as to create a campaign that far more like one of the better Charles DeLint novels - classic urban fantasy, except that the Fae are dangerous things that sensible people avoid.

Promethean is an inherently dark and horrific game, and there is a degree of horror implicit in both Werewolf and Vampire. However, both Mage and Changeling can be done equally well as horror and as complex and non-fluffy urban fantasy.

[rhiannon]

Yesssss, it has already been mentioned. But many wondered if it would be exactly the same Arcadia as in Mage. It seems that this has been confirmed.

Some will like this, some won't. I noticed it was brought up in the Changeling! pinned thread, and it was mentioned that perhaps it needed a thread of its own. Hence the discussion thread. To discuss whether or not you like the idea, how you think it could be explained, problems it may cause and what to do about them.

EDIT: I personally do not know much about Mage, so I will refrain from starting the discussion.

This post has been edited by rhiannon: 17 April 2007 - 09:10 PM

[Daevid]

Yes, and thanks for the new thread. I guess I'd also like a Mage player's take on it before going too much further into discussion. The Mage corebook is pretty scant on the subject, at least from my perusals of it. Maybe Nopp could weigh in here with what he knows, and why he doesn't think having both Arcadias be the same is a good thing. Or anyone else familiar enough with Mage to comment.

Without knowing more, the obvious reason it seems like a good thing is that it keeps things simple. No "Arcadia" for the fae and seperate "Arcadia" for Mage. OWoD seemed to suffer from a lot of contradictions/complexity when it came to the "Otherrealms."

[Nepher]

Okay, so you want a Mage player comment?

Arcadia is a rather blurry realm, as all supernal realm. You find there what you need, hope, fear, fun, power. Fate and Time are the two most powerful forces there. But we know next to nothing from this realm, since it can be visited only during awakening, and such events are highly subjective. I'd really like that Arcadia retains that blurry aspect, that changelings don't keep perfect memories of their abduction, that this realm remains mostly unknown.

Second thing to know, the Fallen World (our world, including the spirit world) and the Supernal Realm (Arcadia and the others) are separated by the Abyss, a world of endless void. It could be what the Changelings call the Thorns, a path of pain, fear, suffering, which make the escape more hard, and only one-way.

All it inspires me for the moment...

[Daevid]

Thanks Nepher. That's helpful. Seems in keeping with what little I know of it.

Of course, just because a Changeling retains some perception of Arcadia doesn't mean he saw the whole picture or even anything other than what the True Fae wanted him to see, so I'm not sure why it would be considered a bad thing to make them the same place. I agree that it would be good to keep it somewhat vague, but I think there needs to be enough memory to know that going back is a bad thing. Maybe the True Fae can mold Arcadia to their wishes, but its true nature is kept from the CHangelings.

[Fabio Sooner]

Without knowing more, the obvious reason it seems like a good thing is that it keeps things simple. No "Arcadia" for the fae and seperate "Arcadia" for Mage. OWoD seemed to suffer from a lot of contradictions/complexity when it came to the "Otherrealms."

Yeah, and that's why I don't mind Changeling's Arcadia being the same as Mage's Supernal Realm of Arcadia...

... as long as the information on both are open enough for individual STs to make whatever they want of it, including dismiss the connection as unimportant if they so desire. I'd guess that's why Nopp and others are so wary of the two being the same realm.
(I won't open that whole "this makes us feel like Mage is the game at the center of the WoD universe" can of worms. Any player that comes to me with such a claim will be automatically entitled to cattle prodding. )

[Luxifer]

Here's my take on it all...

I think some of the conflict comes up with the assumption that the Supernal Realms somehow belong to the Awakening genre, like the assumption that the Shadow belongs to the Forsaken genre.

I would suggest that this is not the case. In designing the new World of Darkness, one of the things that was taken into consideration was a collaboration for the sake of uniformity. This means that not only are cross-over mechanics more viable, but there was also the need for a more unified cosmology. A sticking problem of the oWoD is that there was a multiplicity of cosmologies, there was the Dreaming, the Umbra, the Astral, the Underworld etc... etc... etc... there was the Tapestry, Triad and subjective consensus. All of this works well within a given context, and does offer a large number of storytelling opportunities for your post-modern metaphysicist.

In nWoD I think we're seeing a broader unified cosmology. In Awakening, we have the most total view of the cosmology because of the versatility of magic and the mage genre. Mages touch upon the supernal realms, they cross the abyss, they can enter the shadow (and the Underworld), they can enter a state of Twilight and perhaps even the Lower Depths and Abyss if they're crazy enough. So the cosmology tends to become a bit of a mages plaything and some players are want to cry "unfair"... realistically that is the shtick of Mages. They are the perverts of reality after all . However, as a consequence they tend to be more generalists. Their relationship with the shadow can be powerful, but it's certainly not as intimate and innate as that of the werewolves. Similarly, Prometheans have a very intimate relationship to the Divine Fire and qashmallim (which may be connected to the Aether) that Mages seem to get innately. I suspect that Changelings will also have a unique and special relationship with Arcadia that Mages might not completely understand and realise.

To extrapolate from this and from hints dropped by developers (check out the first interview and some of Bill Bridges comments from WW forums), Mages do not have the WHOLE answer. They have seen a large portion of the cosmology and found many pieces of its puzzle, but they still are missing critical pieces. Consequently, they have a tendency to label certain aspects of the cosmology according to the generally accepted mythos and ontology. The parallels between the Abyss and the Thorns have not escaped my notice, and I'm tempted to suggest that this barrier (let's call it the Weirding Wall in honour of Sean R. Borgstrom for the time being) is something more than how the Abyss is painted, and the Abyss or the Thorns are only one of its many faces. It would be interesting to suggest that the Weirding Wall can adapt to the nature of what creature opposes it.

All in all, I can say I'm pretty excited since all of this seems to be slotting in rather nicely for Delirium. Much of my guess work seems to be paying off, meaning less and less revision will be necessary for its release.

[Wild thing]

As I'm Acanthi how is very interested in Changeling, I'm happy that will be Arcadia for them "the same" as for Mages. As Mage Storyteller, I porpbaly buy book only for some more info about realm, to better represent it in my games. Even if some good info was mantoned in Tome of Watchtowers, for me its not enougth too make arcadic feel for Awakenings.

As too running form True Faes, one of my Evil Mages (Banishers) had this kind of Awakening.

[Nopp]

I think I dislike the Mage and Fae Arcadia being the same because I prefer games to be separate. It's simpler that way, and I just feel it gives Mage a sort of... superiority over Changeling (for lack of a better word). Ma deals with the five knwon Supernal Realms, and the Exarchs are the upposed laords of those realms. If the Changeling realm simply represents one fifth of the scope of Mage (and before you say "Mages only go there once for Awakening", Changelings aren't really too keen on a double visit either) and the Realm of the True Fae, supposedly the kingdom wher etheir rule is law, has a dirty great watchtower in it, and a bunch of humans bitchslapping each other over who gets to rule the place. And every now and again, you get the soul of some shmuck rampaging through blindly tryong to find that dirty great watchtower.

I just wanted the Arcadia of Changeling to be he true domain of the Fae, not disputed territory.

[Luxifer]

Again, I refer to my rather big post on that. It's only the Awakening game that describes "Arcadia" as a mage location....

[Nopp]

I supose you have a point. I'm sill a little unhappy, but it can't be helped.

And if you want me to read big posts, alternate text colours or something.

[Deimos_Masque]

Yesssss, it has already been mentioned. But many wondered if it would be exactly the same Arcadia as in Mage. It seems that this has been confirmed.

Actually what Jess said was she couldn't talk about the Relationship between the Arcadia of the two games.


And Lux, the problem isn't that Acradia is "Mage Only!" its that we are told in Mage, "No one visits the Supernal Realms physically and no inhabitant of the Supernal goes to the Fallen World"

And if the Arcadia's are the same that suddenly says, "OH except for the Changelings and the Fae"

[Jagash]

The other option is that there are these fae in arcadia which are in no way related to these other fae in the other arcadia. That way leads to madness (and the book of worlds in old mage).

[Ethan Skemp]

I just wanted the Arcadia of Changeling to be he true domain of the Fae, not disputed territory.

Arcadia isn't "disputed territory" as far as the stories of Changeling: The Lost go. We have some default ideas stored away for those people who are vigorously interested in crossovers to play with, but if you don't carry the image of "mages invading my Changeling game!" with you, it won't be supplied to you in the game's context, either.

[Nopp]

Its not so much "Mages invading my game" as "Mages invading my faerie kingdom". I'd want to be able to play a crossover game without the Acanthus telling the Changeling "I don't know what your problem is. The place is a little bizzare, but I thought it was quite nice. Oh, did you see the watchtower there, its such a pretty sight!"

[Deimos_Masque]

That's good to hear Ethan (along with your comment on the WW Forum about Arcadia being background not necessarily immediately important).

I honestly don't care how people interpret Arcadia (as a Supernal Realm, an unreachable dimension, right next door, etc) as long as it's left open to interpretation. As all background has been in the NWOD.

Its not so much "Mages invading my game" as "Mages invading my faerie kingdom". I'd want to be able to play a crossover game without the Acanthus telling the Changeling "I don't know what your problem is. The place is a little bizzare, but I thought it was quite nice. Oh, did you see the watchtower there, its such a pretty sight!"

To which the Changelings can sarcastically say, "Yeah I hear the tourist section is lovely. Next time go to the fucking slums!"

[xrenegadexsadizt]

I'm thinking maybe the fae realms won't be Arcadia, but a darker, more twisted version of them. Maybe Arcadia will be a type of lost paradise to the fae, like Atlantis or Pangaea.

[Deimos_Masque]

It's been confirmed that the Realms of the Fae in Changeling is called Arcadia.

[Ethan Skemp]

Its not so much "Mages invading my game" as "Mages invading my faerie kingdom". I'd want to be able to play a crossover game without the Acanthus telling the Changeling "I don't know what your problem is. The place is a little bizzare, but I thought it was quite nice. Oh, did you see the watchtower there, its such a pretty sight!"

I'd wager that Acanthus meeting changelings wouldn't act anything close to "oh, my goodness, I know all there is to know about Arcadia, and it was perfectly lovely." At least given the perspective that Bill was describing when we first started brainstorming this, mages would be a lot more "OMGWTFBBQ" than the jaded tourist you describe. There are vast gulfs of difference in the "how" that both visit Arcadia, and any mage with the sense the Oracles gave a chicken pot pie would not assume that changelings have a more limited perspective than they do.

Is there a chance that players might decide to play favorites, and cite chapter and verse to defend their given splat's point of view and disregard anything that might imply they still have more to learn? Well, yeah, sure, but that's been happening since people first decided that a Tremere perspective was "more right" than a Ventrue's.