[krowe]

I had once contemplated joining the Camarilla and setting up a chapter in town. I emailed my regional coordinator to ask some questions about how to get set up and while I got a reply... it was all the help that I received. One reply. He had mentioned some participants in my area that he knew traveled to other venues and while I understand not freely giving out such information, a little help from more experienced and obviously interested people would have gone a LONG way in seeing the idea through to fruition.

I sit here tonight, having been bitten by the urge to explore the idea once again, and I'm glancing over the Addendum. And it is really confusing the shit out of me. Not in terms of me understanding what I am reading but in understanding just why some of it was put to print.

So, the ultimate question that may save anyone who cares to reply the most time will be: Does the Cam forum or wiki perhaps explain in some detail why some of these rules came about?

Some of the things that have raised my eyebrow so far:
-- Why specifically re-add Dramatic Failures just for character weaknesses or flaws?
-- Why is Cross-Genre play considered so difficult/problematic/dangerous that it receives the attention that it does in the Addendum?
-- Why do Vampires of high enough Blood Potency have to feed only on PCs?
-- Why do Vampires only get benefits from Diablerizing PCs?
-- Why can Vampires only learn Disciplines from PCs?

Obviously, the PC-only Vampire stuff has me wondering just what the hell the Cam has had happen or is worried about. I mean, with the extensive approvals system that they seem to have in place it doesn't likely that a ST could get away with letting NPCs easily be an exploitable resource.

[agasha kumiko]

It seems obvious to me for a few reasons.

1) To cut off easy avenues for powergaming and twinkfests

2) To keep the action and story completely focused on the players and the participants at the venue (ie. encourage roleplaying not dice rolling).

3) By it's very nature LARP demands far tighter top down control than TT to be viable. The issues dealt with are just different with a group of 20+ people, compared to the 4-6 at a typical TT game. With the kicker that in TT you are playing with personal friends so the Golden Rule and personal ST interpretation works, it doesn't in LARP. LARP requires an ironclad baseline at all costs.

4) Crossover is hard enough in TT given the dilution of theme, it is a joke in LARP, mostly used as an excuse by players and ST's to favor their preferred supernatural.

Check out the Pale Puppy archives for the Long Beach incident on just how bad a LARP can go with little control and misinterpretation of the actual rules when context is ignored. That was a pure Vampire game just imagine if it were crossover.

Personally I don't like the Cam because at certain venues players are allowed to bring in characters that skew the power level to them exclusively, be damned that others are participating. As an organization it has a big problem with "cronyism" that has never been properly addressed or fixed since its inception. YMMV

[Dolston]

Agasha's answers are a lot less snide then mine would be but if you want my take on it I am more than happy to oblige.

[krowe]

Agasha's answers are a lot less snide then mine would be but if you want my take on it I am more than happy to oblige.

I really do want to know what the justifications are.

The answer kumiko supplied ARE obvious answers, but they seem stupid reasons given that the approvals system that I see would blatantly highlight a ST who was using NPCs to the advantage of his or her players. I just don't see the need in denying such access to NPCs in such a way if munchkinism is the primary reasoning behind those decisions. I read that an option exists to request approval to break any rule in the addendum, so things aren't as totalitarian as they seemed at first.

But for me, NPCs are no less characters than PCs, so the same reactions, repercussions, and difficulties would exist regardless of who was being fed from, Diablerized, or taught by. It kinda feels like the Cam either has or doesn't expressly trust enough of its STs to be as reasonable as that.

I'm not stamping my feet and whining about not being able to be a munchkin, so being snide is unnecessary and unwelcome, but I would like help understanding what went into these decisions from people experienced in dealing with the Cam.

[Krieg]

Crazy Rule/insane guess #3: to encourage people to bring in new players to eat.

[Luxifer]

As a national officer in the Camarailla I might be able to answer some of those questions. First, I'd like to point out that I have an inherent bias against the resolution mechanic as presented in MET, I think the 10 base for a success, followed by the division of 5 for each subsequent successes is rediculous. It only encourages mix-maxing and was the stupid fault of the original play testers who virtually cajoled white wolf to change it from 10, div 3 as it was originally. Personally, I would prefer 8 div 3, but the common rhetoric I hear about why that is impossible is because the average american player cannot apparently divide by 3 so well.

-- Why specifically re-add Dramatic Failures just for character weaknesses or flaws?

DFs were removed in the first place, I don't know why. I think the re-addition was because many VSTs decided in the end it was a cool effect after all and wanted them included some how

-- Why is Cross-Genre play considered so difficult/problematic/dangerous that it receives the attention that it does in the Addendum?

Largely because of historic precedents that have been set over the last ten years. Many players are horrible power-gamers and cheese monkies producing what is called the "super-friends" syndrome, where they buddy up with other supernaturals for immense benefits. Such as a Kindred making friends with a Forces master to make them more resistant to sunlight etc. Worse, because a single player controls about 1 character per venue, there was the abuse of that same player's character's helping their other character's out. That sort of shit is heavily frowned upon though.

In general, most of the people who are higher up in the game have enough trouble trying to co-ordinate nationally and internationally a single genre of a game. Usually these officers are really familiar with one genre rule-set and not others. Consequently, it's far easier to police this morass of idiots by closely regulating x-over.

-- Why do Vampires of high enough Blood Potency have to feed only on PCs?
-- Why can Vampires only learn Disciplines from PCs?

To force player interaction and deals.

For BP, it is to actually make players feel the pinch of such a dependency. It becomes far to easy to sire an NPC and feed off them, thereby sidestepping the effects of the high blood potency.

- Why do Vampires only get benefits from Diablerizing PCs?

Similar as above. Diablerising is a quick and cheesy way to get high BP without XP. If you're going to do the nasty, there should be real consequences, and you will get a much more violent reaction to a PC death than an NPC death in character.

Obviously, the PC-only Vampire stuff has me wondering just what the hell the Cam has had happen or is worried about. I mean, with the extensive approvals system that they seem to have in place it doesn't likely that a ST could get away with letting NPCs easily be an exploitable resource.

I will say this rather bluntly, these rules are there because some idiot has attempted to use loopholes to their advantage and power game in stupid and brain-breaking ways. You get a lot of idiots in the Camarilla, though I seem to hear more stories of gross stupidity coming from the States then anywhere else. The second problem is that Camarilla lacks good VSTs and the culture in the States for acceding to approvals. There is the sometimes attitude that an approval tends to be a right, not a privilege and that an ST has to provide a detailed justification for denying it.

Sadly, what all of this boils down to is the fact that the Camarilla has s stupid level of politics, out of character back door deals and the occasional metagaming. If you want to set up a new chapter, I recommend going onto IRC, darkmyst.org #cam-ooc and see if you can actually talk to your RST (I assume you're in the states) and any potential local players.

[Dolston]

Alright, I am not a representative of the Camarilla so this is just my take on MET and large, network games that I have had experience with in the past.

I have no good justification for putting back in dramatic failures. I don't like them or dramatic successes in any system. Taking them out equals good by me. Conversely, putting them back in equals bad.

Cross-genre games are highly problematic. Even though NWOD has gone to great lengths to make the mechanics for all the different systems be able to work together the moods and themes of each game are completely different. Inherently you are going to play a different game if you are following Requiem then if you are following the printed material for Forsaken or Awakening. Combining critters from all the lines muddies the story and concepts to the point you get often get WoD Superheroes or something else equally contrived.

Everything else you have mentioned is designed to create conflict. As we all learned in public school, conflict is what drives the story. In MET that story is best told through PC to PC interactions. These rules changes seem to exist to develop that PC vs PC conflict.

In theory this is a good thing. Problem is that the type of conflict that these changes favor is the killing and the stabbing action hero kind and no the rich, dramatic angst that Vampire is suppose to be about. According to me, the Camarilla has completely missed the point by doing this. The rules now favor people who want to play characters who feast on other PCs instead of working towards creating a co-operative game.

[krowe]

Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.

Basically, what you are both saying is that far too many people are ridiculous idiots who have ruined things for the rest of us.

As Dolston alludes to, I would think that forcing PCs to target other PCs would have a detrimental effect of being a large encouragement towards the other end of the spectrum and metagaming their feeding/Diablerie. How prevalent are such player stalking characters in the games you have been involved with?

[Luxifer]

Diablerie is actually quite rare, these things serve as a good deterent from players going towards the brutal path and thinking about their consequences a little more.

[Dolston]

The fact that the rules are setup in away to make it a "Good Thing"™ likely means it is significantly more prevalent than a game where the Hand of God prevents characters like that. As for exact numbers it would be dependent on the city. Based on my experience one character like this showing up at the wrong time does irreparable damage and sours people for years after the event.

[krowe]

So, to continue this mental exercise as I try to make up my mind, what kind of environment would I be dealing with in regards to the Cam?

How much control do I really have over my own venue at the end of the night? If I end up with a player going to lengths to learn a Discipline but lacking another player to teach them, will I meet ridiculous opposition to waiving that rule? Am I just a robot to the rules or do I get to utilize my own judgment for the good of the stories being told around me?

How much control do I have over setting up my venue? Will I be able to just translate all the material that I have for my tabletop Chronicle(s) to this? If someone has or creates a character whose background claims activity in my venue, do I have to acquiesce or do I have some sort of veto power if things just don't fit?

I know I could hit up the Cam for these questions, but I would rather get the experiences of people who I can trust to be impartial.

[Luxifer]

Theoretically, you are the God of your Venue. The structure is designed to help facilitate the VST carry out his duties. You, howver, in turn have an obligation to the structure of the storyteller chain. This is to help facilitate the bureaucracy.

In terms of things that you want to do contrary to the Addendum, if it's outright prohibited it can be overcome with a Master approval, which is arduous. In the example of the PC teacher for a Discipline I would recommend looking for PC teachers outside your domain and/or speak to the ST chain above you to see what they suggest to help it happen.

For people who create characters in your domain, they actually have to get express approval from the VST of that genre/domain and sometimes the Domain storyteller. This is to ensure that you aren't surprised by significant characters who had significant histories in your domain. So you have the absolute right of Veto.

If you're creating a domain, there may be characters that have a history there prior to your tenure, but there would be records of that from the Regional Storyteller or equivalent.

As for translating material from TT, the Addenda demonstrates which books are sanctioned for play and to what extent. Some, like the city books (New Orleans, Chicago etc) aren't sanctioned because the Cam has it's own universe, but will sanction certain mechanics within it (such as Kindred Medium from NO).

Also, because the TT books aren't a *perfect* fit to LARP but can provide a good approximation, there are small notes on conversion guides throughout the relevant addenda.

[Dolston]

Krowe,

The benefit to the Cam is travel and a large network of support and a huge number of resources.

The trade-off is you play by their rules, implement their stories and must allow their players to play.

For what its worth, the Cam can not offer me anything that I can not do myself or that I do not think is a disadvantage when running a game. If you like their rules, like travel and like having help with plots then the Cam is probably a good thing for you. If you like having near complete control of chronicle and all the headaches and benefits that come with that don't join the Camarilla.

[Luxifer]

yeah that's a pretty fair assessment Dolston

pros of Cam is participating in a large and interactive setting with a score of thousands to play with

cons, you simply don't have completely control and are often constrained in stuff you might want to tinker with

[Dolston]

I want to make it clear that I don't have anything personal against the Camarilla Org. I know a lot of people who have had fun playing with it and someone I consider a good friend holds a Global Position while I know the Nat ST for Canada. To me, the type of games I think are fun and the type of stories I think are interesting can not be run well or at all in the Camarilla.

[krowe]

Unfortunately, as it seems to me, if I want to try out a regular LARP then I am going to need the Cam to benefit from nearby members. I just don't have enough immediately available to fill out enough activity without me playing a too many NPCs.

[agasha kumiko]

Well if it were me I would give it a go, if for nothing else as a way to network with these nearby players. If it goes well maybe you can "steal" 2 or 3 for your own LARP....

[tomewilson]

Chalk it up to a lot of edits that were made to the MET rules by the Cam at the 11th hour without being proofed, edited or properly tested.

[strider1276]

First, I realize that it's a long time since this thread has seen activity, and I'm coming into the discussion late, but still...thought I'd throw my two cents into the ring, if nobody minds. If you do...skip reading, maybe? :-)

I had once contemplated joining the Camarilla and setting up a chapter in town. I emailed my regional coordinator to ask some questions about how to get set up and while I got a reply... it was all the help that I received. One reply. He had mentioned some participants in my area that he knew traveled to other venues and while I understand not freely giving out such information, a little help from more experienced and obviously interested people would have gone a LONG way in seeing the idea through to fruition.

This is very frustrating, and I'm sorry this happened. I would suggest the best option - not just for you, but for anyone looking for a Cam presence nearby - is to use the Chapter Locator:

http://camarilla.whi. ..p...5&Itemid=48

You select the appropriate state, and it will list the Domains and Chapters in that state. I'll admit it might take a bit of work on your part to then locate the appropriate local game, but I will tell you that, in most cases, contacting local folks is better, as they are the ones with less Cam-work to do, in general, so they have less traffic in their email inboxes, so messages won't get lost as easily (amongst other things - for instance, to put a blunt face on it, it's in the local area's best interest to get more people, as that can make a better game). My local domain has grown from maybe a dozen players up to about twenty, and we regularly get visitors from hours away. That might not be the baseline for the rest of the organization, but it's worked out here.

I sit here tonight, having been bitten by the urge to explore the idea once again, and I'm glancing over the Addendum. And it is really confusing the shit out of me. Not in terms of me understanding what I am reading but in understanding just why some of it was put to print.

So, the ultimate question that may save anyone who cares to reply the most time will be: Does the Cam forum or wiki perhaps explain in some detail why some of these rules came about?

Generally, the "why" isn't really discussed - not out of a sense of some sort of shadowy Illuminati running the organization or something, but out of a sense of time, really. I assure you, I've seen how some individual rules get argued and bandied about on our rules list - it can get ugly, really. And it can take forever.

That being said - there are certainly rules that have been changed in the Addendum. The Global and National-level officers that work together on the Addendum are human, and we make mistakes. And, sometimes, we make rulings that we don't really see at the time as being bad, really, but after some playtime, are shown to not have been the best for the game. Also, some things in the Addendum aren't clear, so we clarify as needed. So, rules change and so forth - the Addendum is a living document.

To address some points:

-- Why specifically re-add Dramatic Failures just for character weaknesses or flaws?

Is there something in particular that this is in reference to, or is this just an "in-general" kind of thing?

-- Why is Cross-Genre play considered so difficult/problematic/dangerous that it receives the attention that it does in the Addendum?

The points above pretty much hit it on the head. First, the "super-friends" syndrome is possible, and unwanted. The general plan in the Cam is that, when Cross-Venue play occurs, that the paranoia and secrecy that should be present is. While there isn't any particular animosity between the supernatural races anymore (particularly in the case of the werewolf/vampire venues, from oWoD to nWoD), there's no reason to share all of your information with everyone else.

Second - it does start to muddle the themes and such of the various venues. Having werewolves come into a Requiem game, for instance, can be problematic, as they are not suited in the least (in general) to the political arenas that vampires often find themselves in. Keeping Cross-Venue rare and controlled helps to keep the themes intact.

-- Why do Vampires of high enough Blood Potency have to feed only on PCs?
-- Why do Vampires only get benefits from Diablerizing PCs?
-- Why can Vampires only learn Disciplines from PCs?

Obviously, the PC-only Vampire stuff has me wondering just what the hell the Cam has had happen or is worried about. I mean, with the extensive approvals system that they seem to have in place it doesn't likely that a ST could get away with letting NPCs easily be an exploitable resource.

The approvals process typically does not apply for NPC's - at least, so long as they aren't some particular bloodline or have anything on their sheet that itself requires an approval. So, actually, it is (as sad as this may sound) very, very easy for abuse to sneak in. As much as it would be expected that Storytellers act in an exemplary manner, ethically speaking, this isn't always the case, and sometimes, it's necessary to account for the Lowest Common Denominator when making rulings.

Also - this gives those characters that have a high BP a drawback. Very little in the WoD comes without some sort of trade-off, and if it were possible for a PC to simply create NPC childer and feed off of them to account for their feeding habits - there would be no drawback, no effort, and certainly no horror in such a character. Requiring that high-BP characters feed from PC's engenders a drawback on many levels (that I can expound upon if needed).

I hope that explains some of your questions, at least. I'll keep up with the thread more often, to answer more questions, if you guys want. :-)