[Nepher]

Somehow, the Pentex exist! Spirit Cults (basically, human turned to slavery by spirits) are as local or as global as you want, depending on the potency of the leading spirit. After all, Tribes are just that, a group following a potent spirit, and are worldwide.

Working on that, minions of one of the Maeljin are hidden everywhere, rooted in the Forsaken and Pure societies (Bale Hound), and everywhere in the Spirit World, manipulating humans throught possession and Influences. This is an evil to be rooted out, proactively. Even some corporations can be corrupted by such minion...

[anodyr]

First, I'll agree with the fact that WtA had a more global set up than WtF. Thats all part of the whole "oWOD had metaplot, nWoD doesnt" thing. Whether thats good or bad is always going to be a personal thing, and having not played WtA, all I can say is that the local scale of WtF works for me.

I'll address your points in a slightly funny order:

Its not like your pack can attack their local Pentex subsidiary, find paperwork indicating the bigger organisation, go and raid that address for evidence despite it being halfway across the country and keep following and niggling at this thing despite they're a long way across home. Or pursue a Black Spiral carrying a fetish halfway across the world. Or become Umbral messengers carrying dispatches and materiel into danger in the name of some secret plan between the Amazon, the Carpathians and New York. Etc.etc.

This was all to do with moonbridges, right?* Anyway, in WtF you are indeed much less likely to see a pack trecking all over the world in the course of their chronicle given the setting as written. However most, if not all, of what you've suggested above can be easily reinterpretted into WtF - the only changes lie in the antagonists. Which brings me to the next point:

However, the point in WtF, is that there's always this succesion of local enemies. They're not, as a rule, part of some bigger overarching thing that you can target to try and stop it altogether.

Theres no reason why you cant have a big bad amongst all the lesser evils that the Forsaken face, controlling some, unconnected with others. For example, the canon backstory of Gurdilags reign in Denver. At one point the idigam had driven pretty much all of the werewolves out of the city, leading to many dispossessed packs being left without territories. Max Roman wandered off to Chicago (and possibly elsewhere) in search of the idigams ban, ultimatley returning, forming his coalition and retaking Denver (to cut a long story very short).

So what if your story took place in the period prior to Roman returning with the ban? Your Pentex-like enemy is Gurdilag whose army of Claimed, Urged, Magath and dodgy werewolf-spirit hybrids controls Denver. In the mountains, the Pure are still holding their own territories. That gives you two fronts on which territory-less Uratha could wage a war of reconquest/reclamation.

Theres no reason why your pack cant be the ones who set off across the world in search of Gurdilags ban, with agents of the idigam hot on their heels.

If you want the pack to work as part of a larger organisation, then Max Romans coalition gives you the perfect backstory to do this - perhaps he forges a coalition prior to discovering Gurdilags ban. Once he finds the ban (with the aid of his coalition allies) he takes it to the larger werewolf society and convinces them to stand at his side for the final assault.

Alternatively, if you really want Pentex to be involved, you can simply place some sort of idigam-like entity at the top of the board of CEO's and have it as the classic world-wide antagonist. The territorial nature of the Uratha can work in your favour here - with no wider organisation to look to for support (beyond perhaps Lodges), the players pack will feel very small indeed facing off against such a large antagonist. Perhaps their only way forward will be through uniting the Uratha (just as Max Roman wishes to) and coordinate something on a larger scale, convincing their brethren that maintaining their ndividual territories wont mean a thing if the idigam-driven Pentex gets its claws into the world.

In WtA the enemy is out there waiting and you can take trouble to its doorstep.

All you need is a reason to take the fight to the enemy. A predominantly Pure-held territory for example. Or even play as the Pure, seeking to eliminate the Forsaken (I'd love to run a Pure chronicle one day...). Theres a pack of werewolves in the core (BMX I think) who's self-imposed mission is to hunt vamps. They certainly dont wait for the vamps to cross into their territory. In fact theres even a couple of paras in the Core about plauying a chronicle with nomadic pack on the road, hunting Vamps. The Black Sky Walkers in the Chicago book are nomadic, returning to Chicago every now and again with new Uratha in tow to introduce to the city packs before hitting the road again. The fact that a pack might not hold a conventional territory is in itself a goldmine for interesting plot hooks. Why dont they have one? How does this affect their relations with other, more conventional Uratha?

I definitely believe that you can do pretty much whatever you want with a WtF chronicle, without running against the spirit of the game or having to rewrite chunks of the canon material to make it fit.

Loving this discussion by the way - its making me look at WtF from all sorts of crazy angles.

* And whose to say that, if what your pack really needs is a moonbridge thingy, there isnt a spirit or Ithaeur out there that knows how to do such a thing. Ofcourse, such help comes at a price...

Working on that, minions of one of the Maeljin are hidden everywhere, rooted in the Forsaken and Pure societies (Bale Hound), and everywhere in the Spirit World, manipulating humans throught possession and Influences. This is an evil to be rooted out, proactively. Even some corporations can be corrupted by such minion...

Absolutely right - I'd forgotten about the Maeljin. Your pack mauy have sworn to seek out the followers of one Maeljin for some personal reason, trekking anywhere and everywhere, eschewing a territory until they have rooted out all sources of the Maeljins evil. They may even translate territory as something other than a physical area - the human soul perhaps. Any time a Maeljin affects a human, this could be translated as a trespass, and therefore needs dealing with.

This post has been edited by anodyr: 10 December 2007 - 02:52 PM

[Annael]

What gets me about Forsaken--something I love and hate at the same time--is the oppressive feeling of it. You've got these people who will essentially never be able to rest, because Something will always come along to try and kill or torment them. It's not like a war where you can say, "If we do this (however difficult or unlikely it is), then we can end it." In Forsaken, there's no end to fighting, no hope for an end. That creates a really cool mood, but on the other hand, it's about as painful as a psychological baseball bat to the head. It just hurts to think about, and I'm not sure how Uratha can endure the idea of endless, unrelenting conflict. On the one hand, that gives me a great foundation to create my characters from, but on the other I find the idea kind of freaky.

[anodyr]

That perfectly encapsulates the whole "life is a struggle" thing that the book goes on about. I suppose the key is not to think about how you or I would deal with it (I guess that we'd see it as unfair that we have to fight constantly to make a better life), but how they would. I think the answer lies in their attitude towards the struggle - its not depressing for a Uratha (at least not in the sense we know), its invigorating, uplifting, necessary and, above all, self-justifying. At First Change suddenly they understand why life is, and has been, such a struggle for them. They discover who they are by virtue of realising where they fit into the grand scheme of things. They know what lies at the end of the struggle, whereas we mere mortals simply hope for a better tomorrow in our short-sighted naivety.

[agasha kumiko]

That perfectly encapsulates the whole "life is a struggle" thing that the book goes on about. I suppose the key is not to think about how you or I would deal with it (I guess that we'd see it as unfair that we have to fight constantly to make a better life), but how they would. I think the answer lies in their attitude towards the struggle - its not depressing for a Uratha (at least not in the sense we know), its invigorating, uplifting, necessary and, above all, self-justifying. At First Change suddenly they understand why life is, and has been, such a struggle for them. They discover who they are by virtue of realising where they fit into the grand scheme of things. They know what lies at the end of the struggle, whereas we mere mortals simply hope for a better tomorrow in our short-sighted naivety.

Wow! That fits any full supernatural no joke. It tells in Brass Tacks why any supernatural keeps on the journey. They have knowledge of the END or the PRIZE in spades, or better put by human perceptions, all you need to do is think outside the box. Or think about others before yourself? That's the core of being Foresaken...thinking about others while knowing you're jobbed. If you think that kind of thing is "limited" then I am sorry for you.

I keep hearing about this line of thought that Foresaken are the Police of the World in conjunction with the Mages. Seems to me that the Foresaken and the Mages are the Underground this time around. WtA werewolves could just say fuck it and hit the enemy in the face, straight up. Try that behavior in any NWoD game, you will be disabused.

[krowe]

Somehow, the Pentex exist! Spirit Cults (basically, human turned to slavery by spirits) are as local or as global as you want, depending on the potency of the leading spirit. After all, Tribes are just that, a group following a potent spirit, and are worldwide.

Working on that, minions of one of the Maeljin are hidden everywhere, rooted in the Forsaken and Pure societies (Bale Hound), and everywhere in the Spirit World, manipulating humans throught possession and Influences. This is an evil to be rooted out, proactively. Even some corporations can be corrupted by such minion...

The Archmage has hit the nail.

NWoD large organizations just don't exist in any unified form. Sure, the Tribes, Covenants, Orders, etc... share global commonalities but they lack globally organized machinations or goals. All Hosts, generally speaking, want to contribute to the rebirth of their parent Spirit but they do not compare notes with the brood in the next city to coordinate their struggles, for example. And that is completely alterable to taste without any risk of damaging other canon features.

So, just because Azlu or the Pure or even other Forsaken aren't large organization doesn't mean that they cannot make organized and long-term enemies. Just because individual instances of these enemies aren't part of a formal whole doesn't make them any less of a nemesis. Just because the Wyrm or some other guiding intelligence isn't behind things doesn't make defending both sides of the Gauntlet from abusing each other any less of a purpose.

[Nepher]

What gets me about Forsaken--something I love and hate at the same time--is the oppressive feeling of it. You've got these people who will essentially never be able to rest, because Something will always come along to try and kill or torment them. It's not like a war where you can say, "If we do this (however difficult or unlikely it is), then we can end it." In Forsaken, there's no end to fighting, no hope for an end. That creates a really cool mood, but on the other hand, it's about as painful as a psychological baseball bat to the head. It just hurts to think about, and I'm not sure how Uratha can endure the idea of endless, unrelenting conflict. On the one hand, that gives me a great foundation to create my characters from, but on the other I find the idea kind of freaky.

True, but it's in the nature of roleplaying to always go on. However, there's might be an end. Through fighting, bargain, alliance and basic daily chores, the Uratha can gain a territory in balance. This balance can be broken by anything the ST want, but if you want to stop a chronicle by attaining an end, you can.

Hey, at home, the fight against dust is a neverending one, but it's not so depressing, isn't it?

[SKeLoRiC]

The Archmage has hit the nail.

NWoD large organizations just don't exist in any unified form. Sure, the Tribes, Covenants, Orders, etc... share global commonalities but they lack globally organized machinations or goals. All Hosts, generally speaking, want to contribute to the rebirth of their parent Spirit but they do not compare notes with the brood in the next city to coordinate their struggles, for example. And that is completely alterable to taste without any risk of damaging other canon features.

So, just because Azlu or the Pure or even other Forsaken aren't large organization doesn't mean that they cannot make organized and long-term enemies. Just because individual instances of these enemies aren't part of a formal whole doesn't make them any less of a nemesis. Just because the Wyrm or some other guiding intelligence isn't behind things doesn't make defending both sides of the Gauntlet from abusing each other any less of a purpose.

I just don't see it coming close to what I am looking for in a "Pentex and Freak Legion" chronicle.
It might emulate such is a dreadfully vague fashion, but it loses much of the OWoD concept in conversion to the NWoD incarnation.

[Wood]

I know l'm derailing the thread for just a small observation, but can't resist seizing the opportunity:

Mr. Wilson, I've finally managed to start reading Shadows of the UK. And I can't help but wonder who the heck had the idea of making a spirit called The Piper at the Gates of Dawn. Just for the record, that made my long-buried music buff side smile, alongside the section named I Want to Live Like Common People.

That whole first chapter was me.

The Piper at the Gates of Dawn is, fwiw, a reference to The Wind in the Willows (which is where Floyd got it from, too).

I do like a bit of Syd Barrett, though. And Pulp, well. What can I say? "Common People" was the single best British no. 1 of the 1990s by some considerable distance.

[anodyr]

I just don't see it coming close to what I am looking for in a "Pentex and Freak Legion" chronicle.
It might emulate such is a dreadfully vague fashion, but it loses much of the OWoD concept in conversion to the NWoD incarnation.

Hmm, then perhaps this is one of those cases where WtF really wont work for you. Wanting to play a WtA-style chronicle with WtF is completely doable, but it sounds more like you want to play WtA. Which is all fine, each to their own.

Just out of curiosity Skel, has this stopped you from playing WtF at all, or have you played some games and not taken to them? Is there anything about WtF that does attract you?

[digitalraven]

We are talking JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA???

One member of said. And it's a very veiled reference. I'm not a DC history buff, but he's been a member of the Geoff Johns revamp of the JSA that was running right up to Infinite Crisis.

Oh, and Wood? Please tell me you're joking. Common People was a great song, but best? Nah. Country House, mate. I checked and it turns out that the Manics only got in with their postgraduate effort, wheras I could have sworn that Everything Must Go was a contender. And if we're talking best song, then you've missed quite a few...

[Fabio Sooner]

Oh man, more derailing. Must. Resist.

Oh, and Wood? Please tell me you're joking. Common People was a great song, but best? Nah. Country House, mate.

Country House by Blur? I thought that song often spurred a love/hate reaction, even amongst Blur fans. Maybe it was just the Brazilian ones. I like it a lot, though.

[SKeLoRiC]

Hmm, then perhaps this is one of those cases where WtF really wont work for you. Wanting to play a WtA-style chronicle with WtF is completely doable, but it sounds more like you want to play WtA. Which is all fine, each to their own.

Just out of curiosity Skel, has this stopped you from playing WtF at all, or have you played some games and not taken to them? Is there anything about WtF that does attract you?

Most of WtF appeals to me.
Unlike the other setting flaws introduced into the NWoD, the lack of a real valid threat that one can act proactively rather than reactively hasn't overly harmed the game.
It does however lead to a sort of "second verse, same as the first" that becomes boring after awhile which rather forces WtF to be a game that I devote less attention to on an average basis.

(Mostly though, I wouldn't want a "Pentex/Freak Legion" game to be dependent upon WtF anyway. Much too useful to threaten more than just Werewolves.)

[anodyr]

Thats fair enough, and Im glad you havent completely written the game off. Perhaps the answer lies in the skills of your ST. Maybe if we get a game running on these forums, we could get you involved? Perhaps a new ST might provide some new angles. Just an idea.

[Von Bredow]

Wow, there's a lot to respond to here...

Country House was a good song, but I'm with Wood that Common People was better. Surely those can't be the best number 1s though.

I'll have to say the Common People reference is the single thing that gave me the best first impression about Shadows over the UK, the first thing that made me think "Cool." It made the thing feel British.

Now, the most important things out the way...

Gentlemen, I read what you say. As I've acknowledged there's scope for the sort of things I've talked about and you've provided more examples.

But the New World is less global than the Old and the natural focus on the game isn't on these things. The War against the Pure book is but I feel it handles it less well than WtA. All subjective I guess. And therefore I feel disinclined to make the effort with WtF when WtA handles what I like about it more. I suppose its fair to say I'm comparing the two and asking WtF to conform to WtA, but I feel its truer to say that WtA gave me an option I really liked and when I liked at WtF I liked its default option less and found the option of WtA less than optimal.

If I had time, a true love of the game and the gaming/writing experience I'd make a pitch for a book concentrating on travelling WtF packs and would enjoy seeing one that had been made. Make no mistake, I do like this game, I just like Apocalypse more and its very often on where I can see the obvious differences between the two that I like what Apocalypse more (not unsurprisingly).

Anyway, this has all been rather tangential in a way, the question still remains why is WtF so little talked about. And I do still like the game, maybe even more than certain others where I participate more. Probably because there's more being talked about! And as we've seen, there is a lot of unbeaten track to explore with WtF.

I think that, as Krowe said, maybe Ethan was too concise in pulling it altogether. Not only do gaps in the corebook lead to supplements being produced and brought, they also lead to conversation about the gaps to begin with then the supplement. I agree entirely with Krowe that people aren't going to talk about I also think that compared to WtA he hit the right distance - and that did him no favours either. VtR saw heated discussion because of how close it is, MtAw plenty because of the huge differences... you probably never considered this Skel, but everytime you posted a complaint about the game in these forums you helped advertise it. There'd always be something to talk about in the forums which meant people kept going there to talk. But WtF... well, nothing. CtL has done well too and I think something with that has to do with the very easy comparison to be made with the old game which always roused opinions.

[SKeLoRiC]

Thats fair enough, and Im glad you havent completely written the game off. Perhaps the answer lies in the skills of your ST. Maybe if we get a game running on these forums, we could get you involved? Perhaps a new ST might provide some new angles. Just an idea.

If I'm ever involved with Werewolf it is because I AM the ST.


Mostly the NWoD doesn't get much attention in the area.
The number of groups that either play OWoD or plays no White Wolf of any sort is still much larger than the solitary group playing NWoD.

And they play a very dark and brooding Vampire game that i finally left.
Partly as I spend time with my folks on the weekend -- which was the only time they played -- and partly as my viewpoint on setting and style differed enough from theirs to rather have me considering what i was doing there.
So, I've now formed a Thursday night group which... DOES NOT play anything made by White Wolf.
(But they have been trying an older RPG from the 90s that I rather enjoy, so it works out.)

[Operations]

It was mentioned before, by Ethan or Will or someone, that Forsaken had the lowest sales which was why it received less attention from development. Which makes sense, but I say now what I thought (and maybe said) then: if you release nothing for the game, of course noone is going to buy it and of course noone is going to talk much about it. It is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy or even a self-perpetuating doom.

This is in essence what happened with the Trinity Universe. Which is a shame.

[SKeLoRiC]

Anyway, this has all been rather tangential in a way, the question still remains why is WtF so little talked about. And I do still like the game, maybe even more than certain others where I participate more. Probably because there's more being talked about! And as we've seen, there is a lot of unbeaten track to explore with WtF.

People talk about stuff that there is to talk about.
Whether you love or hate the Predator's Taint in Vampire, you can't argue against all the conversation it has generated over these few short years.
Whether you love or hate Atlantis in Mage, you can't argue against all the conversation it has generated over these few short years.
Love it hate it, Vampire and Mage get talked about.
In fact, I'd be willing to say that people nitpicking and discussing the elements they hate have had a greater impact upon product recognition and thus increased sales whereas Werewolf just gets a mildly satisfied burp and a nod therefore no real attention.
Controversy seems to have driven most of the sales, IMHO, therefore Werewolf needs more controversy.

[krowe]

And therefore I feel disinclined to make the effort with WtF when WtA handles what I like about it more. I suppose its fair to say I'm comparing the two and asking WtF to conform to WtA, but I feel its truer to say that WtA gave me an option I really liked and when I liked at WtF I liked its default option less and found the option of WtA less than optimal.

I can more easily accept this opinion when comparing the two. If you honestly look at both, see no major flaws, and then favor one over the other then you have made an informed decision based upon your own desires. You recognize that WtF COULD do the same things as WtA but why reinvent the wheel when you already have WtA? This is SO much better than the empty reasoning we see elsewhere, where WtF is less of a game just because it isn't WtA.

[Von Bredow]

I can more easily accept this opinion when comparing the two. If you honestly look at both, see no major flaws, and then favor one over the other then you have made an informed decision based upon your own desires. You recognize that WtF COULD do the same things as WtA but why reinvent the wheel when you already have WtA? This is SO much better than the empty reasoning we see elsewhere, where WtF is less of a game just because it isn't WtA.

Oddly enough I probably find more things about WtA that make me bang my head at the stupidity but there we go.

I am now of the opinion (although it may well change tomorrow) that the two games share a great deal more than splits them; much that can be done with one can be done with the other. The overlying mood of the two worlds seperates them but in both worlds are rather familiar and more over they're very broad flexible things. That said there are differences there and almost universally I come down with the oW, thematically and systemically. I prefer the WtA background more than the WtF but they're close enough I've looked to port ideas back and forth.

On the whole I've more problems with new World of Darkness in general than I do with Forsaken (or indeed any individual game).

Still, I wanna play WtF. Maybe I should start nosing around for games.