[Blood Lore]

I didn't know where to post this at but...

So what does anyone know about Adam's first wife, the "Mother of Monsters", And The "First Feminist"? what is her main goal/motive? Is she a valuable ally or antagonist? Better yet has anyone used her in a Vampire/Demon chronicle and how did you portray her?

[memeticenigma]

I have used her as the mother of all monsters among which were the mages which among whopm there was the the antedeluvians of the toeador and malkavian clans whic the toreador was considered to be a demon queen. so i used lilith as mother of those clans and as supportive of the demons as a whole she was considered as a primary holy state by all of her lineage. i don't know if that helps. she was treated more as something to worship and follow rather than a fulltime part in the campaign.

[Blood Lore]

Well another idea I have that Lilith could be a much more powerful version of Samuel Height who has probably mastered everysingle power from every gameline up to 12 (or over 9,000!) making her much scarier than Samuel Height would ever be since she is entitled "The Mother of Monsters".

[Bebop Cola]

Well another idea I have that Lilith could be a much more powerful version of Samuel Height who has probably mastered everysingle power from every gameline up to 12 (or over 9,000!) making her much scarier than Samuel Height would ever be since she is entitled "The Mother of Monsters".

What would be the point of doing that?

[krazlica]

What would be the point of doing that?

Some people, myself included, liking being able to quantify everything, even if you'll never do anything with that data/knowledge.

I view Caine/Lilith and the like as having 12 dot caps, and probably 12 in just about everything at this point (minus, say, computers.)

Is this in anyway relevant to my games? No. Will I ever roll anything out for them? No, especially given that I never use dice anyways. Is it even worth having disciplines at higher than 10 given that 10 in any discipline is "plot device", officially? Not really at all.

But by god I do it anyway.

[Bebop Cola]

Some people, myself included, liking being able to quantify everything, even if you'll never do anything with that data/knowledge.

I view Caine/Lilith and the like as having 12 dot caps, and probably 12 in just about everything at this point (minus, say, computers.)

Is this in anyway relevant to my games? No. Will I ever roll anything out for them? No, especially given that I never use dice anyways. Is it even worth having disciplines at higher than 10 given that 10 in any discipline is "plot device", officially? Not really at all.

But by god I do it anyway.

Fair enough, but don't they forget anything? They've been around a long time, surely they've forgotten a pip or two in some skills.

[Kyrel]

I didn't know where to post this at but...

So what does anyone know about Adam's first wife, the "Mother of Monsters", And The "First Feminist"? what is her main goal/motive? Is she a valuable ally or antagonist? Better yet has anyone used her in a Vampire/Demon chronicle and how did you portray her?

You know, IMO, to answer that question, you/we'll first have to determine what Lilith actually is, which IMO isn't quite as straightforward as it might seem.

The short answer to your question is that you can find a crapload of information about Lilith in "Revelations of the dark Mother". The biggest trick from then is to determine just what the hell you think Lilith really is, and then build upon that. Also, your ultimate answer might also have to depend on what game you use as a basis for your story.

A while ago, someone else posted a question about Lilith, and at the time it got me inspired to look into her a little deeper, and I ended up putting some thoughts on paper. It isn't all relevant to your question, and I never got to finish it entirely, but I'll add it below here, as I think I raise a couple of fun questions people can think over. (Sorry about blowing my own horn here).

Anyway...

Anyway, let’s have a look at what we are told about Lilith and the creation myth of the world in Revelations of the Dark Mother.

Let’s start with the “The Genesis Fragment I: The Creation”.

For the sake of copyrights etc. I’m not going to quote the entire passage here, though that arguably would have been prudent, and made further discussion easier. But anyway…

The passage says that in the beginning there was the Time of Nothing. A time when “The Ancient One” rested and did nothing. If we compare this with what we hear from Demon the Fallen, then this must correspond to the beginning of time, when there is only God and the Void. If this interpretation is correct, then “The Ancient One” must also be the “God” referred to in DtF.

The following passage then goes on to describe how The Ancient One opened its eyes and split the darkness with a bolt of light. From that bolt of light came Jehovah and the rest of the Shining Ones. And this is where I believe things start getting a little hairy, because Jehovah is the name of God according to the Old Testament and the Jewish faith. If this holds true, then we have our first challenge, because if The Ancient One is God in DtF, then Jehovah can not also be God, but rather must be someone created at the same time as the other “Shining Ones” (Hunter anyone…), which arguably are the Elohim, or Angles if you will. If this interpretation is “correct”, then God and the Elohim are really the same type of creature, though their relative power might vary. Let’s hold on to that thought, because this IMO solves a significant number of problems. If the God from DtF is really just another Elohim, created by some Ancient One, then God need not necessarily be omnipotent or omniscient. As Jehovah is referred to as the Firstborn of the Shining Ones, I would argue that it isn’t necessarily a difficult jump to the theory that Jehovah aka. God was the most powerful of the Elohim, and set up to be “in charge” of the remainder of the Shining Ones/Elohim. If this fact is kept from the remainder of the Elohim, then this will explain why there is no reference to The Ancient One in DtF. As an Elohim, God is not omniscient, and the rest of the information in “The Creation” from Revelations can also be explained. Specifically it can be argued that Jehovahs hunger for companionship can be seen as a result of his standing apart from and above the other Elohim. Hence, God is not perfect by his nature. Moving on a bit, Adam and Lilith is the result of a combination of Jehovahs tears and the seeds of the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which grew in Jehovahs garden, which on one level could be what is referred to as Creation in DtF. Adam and Lilith are initially one, joined at their backs, but Jehovah separates them from each other, allowing them to exist as two equals.

As creations, Adam is gifted with the powers of “shaping and naming”, and Lilith with the powers of “Fertility and Intuition”. While Adam spends his time naming the creatures and plants in Jehovahs garden, and learns to hunt the creatures of the garden, as they hunt each other. Lilith, meanwhile, spends her time tending to the needs and breeding of the plants in the garden. Jehovah forbids Lilith to eat the fruits from the Trees of Life and Knowledge, claiming that the fruit of them would destroy her. Lilith doesn’t believe what Jehovah says, and in stead simply eats from the fruits from the Trees once they have fallen to the ground. In eating from the fruits from the Trees of Life and Knowledge, Lilith becomes like a “Shining One”, even if she does not understand how to be like one. In other words, I’d argue that “The Genesis Fragment II: The Garden” outright states that Lilith becomes an Elohim, in terms of power and nature though not of thought and behaviour.

“The Garden” further tell us that Lilith lives in the Garden for a time after having eaten of the fruits of the Trees, and during this time master and surpass Adam in the art of hunting. Adam on the other hand does not eat from the fruits of the Trees, and hence is arguably more like a beast. He furthermore dislikes the fact that Lilith becomes better than him at hunting, and withdraws from her. In his loneliness he mates with the various beasts of the Garden, but Jehovah tells him that he shouldn’t do this, and in stead should look to Lilith as a mate. Lilith is repulsed by Adam though, and will not lie with him, and especially not with him above her, seeing as they are created as equals. Adam nevertheless forces himself upon Lilith, and a fight ensues, which results in Adams sperm falling on the earth along with the blood of both him and Lilith. This gives rise to brambles and ivy, which tears at the heels of both Adam and Lilith. Arguably this might be interpreted as being the initial birth of disharmony in the world. Anyway, when raped Lilith calls upon Jehovahs Truename, and is removed from the Garden and taken into the Heavens, which leaves Adam alone to rage and sate his lust upon the beasts of the Garden.

Upon her ascent into the Heavens, Lilith is questioned by Jehovah about how she has learned his Truename. The text in “III: Lilith as Jehovah’s Consort” refers to Jehovahs voice being like thunder and lightning, which could be seen as a metaphor for anger. Lilith stills Jehovah by creating a completely new flower, which she offers up to him. This leads to Lilith becoming the consort of Jehovah for seven days and nights (a period in which they arguably spend in the Yab-Yum tantric position…). Jehovah can’t take having Lilith as an equal though, and as a result cast her out “into the dust between the gardens”. Arguably this could be seen as meaning that Lilith is banished from the Creation referred to in DtF, which arguably would mean that she could be cast into the Void.

During her time in the Desert/Void, Lilith further develops powers that resemble those of other supernatural powers in the WoD, and arguably she might even be carrying the offspring or sperm of Jehovah (“…but her heart and belly were rent with the love for Him who had betrayed her; and His seed grew in her belly until it was swollen and burdensome…”). Anyway, Lilith wanders the Desert for a while until she comes to an endless sea, into which she descends and mates with the creatures that live there. “…There beneath the Endless Sea, Lilith learned to be like unto Jehovah, and to command the powers thereof. And she divested herself of His seed, and did plant it among the children of her own womb, and of the seed of the creatures of the Sea…”. Arguably, Lilith’s powers thus grow, and she would seem to create her first creatures. Lilith is still not powerful or knowledgeable enough to create a “Garden” like Jehovahs, and thus leaves behind the Endless Sea. Moving into the area of pure speculation, the “Endless Sea” referred to in Revelations, could either be the Abyss referred to by the Lasombra, since supposedly the “shadowstuff” manipulated by the Obtenebration discipline might be related to another “layer” of reality, and supposedly holds powerful creatures. Of course the Endless Sea might also be a reference to the Deep Umbra from the Mage cosmology, or a horizon realm of some sort. The creatures born from Lilith might possibly be the entities referred to in relation to the Mage Nephandi.

Anyway…upon leaving the Endless Sea again, Revelations tell us that Lilith travel to the gardens of at least some of the other Elohim. This may again be references to various levels of reality, or worlds spread throughout the Mage Etherspace. At any rate we are told that she is well received, but fail to find what she seeks. Eventually she returns to Jehovah’s garden, Eden, where Lucifer is now tasked with guarding the gates. Lilith and Lucifer supposedly fall in love though, and Lucifer is also supposed to grant Lilith dominion of the night, as he rules the day. In the DtF cosmology I suppose that it can be assumed that Lilith learns some new Lore(s). At this point it appears that Lilith does not learn the secrets of growing the Trees of Life and Knowledge, that grow in Jehovah’s Eden, because her first attempt at creating a similar garden does not result in success in growing the Trees, why Lilith destroys this first of her Gardens, and return to Eden again, where Jehovah in the meantime has created first one variant of Eve, which Adam wouldn’t know of, and then another variant from one of Adams Ribs. At any rate, Lilith manages to get past Lucifer, who is still guarding the gates of Eden, and taking the form of a serpent she learns the secret of how to grow the Trees of Life and Knowledge of Good and Evil. Lilith also comes across Eve, whom she takes pity upon, and tells to eat from the fruits from the Trees. This supposedly creates another problem in the coherency of the WoD, because while this event supposedly causes the fall and cursing of Humanity, Lucifer, and Lilith, this does not resemble the story that we get in DtF. So how might these two explanations be reconciled with each other? Well, if Lilith at one time represents not only the first woman and an actual “physical” entity, but also an idea and a concept, which would be defensible to argue due to DtF’s reference to multiple levels of reality, then Lilith technically doesn’t need to actually be the entity that leads the Eve into temptation, but rather the gift of enlightenment the Fallen angles give to humanity, can be representative of Lilith, seeing as humanity is then attaining the same sort of awareness that Lilith attained previously.


Revelations of the Dark Mother does throw up a couple of IMO interesting ideas.

1) The Allmaker, aka. God, which we meet in DtF, is not unique, and has himself been created by another even greater entity. God is thus not omnipotent or omniscient, and thus not infallible. God is in fact “merely” a very powerful Elohim.
2) Lucifer is supposed to be like God, though not as powerful as him. The Morningstar of DtF could thus theoretically be a creation of God, who has simply been named after God’s “brother”, the Lucifer referred to in Revelations of the Dark Mother.
3) Assuming that Lilith is created as a human, and then ascends to the state of Elohim, does she in fact have to follow the “rules” for the other Angles presented in DtF? IMO the answer to this would be NO. Revelations tell us that Lilith might attain the powers of an Elohim, but in mind and behaviour she initially remains human. Consider momentarily what DtF considers Mages to be. An awakened is a human upon whose soul is “grafted” and Avatar, which is a piece of a destroyed Elohim/Angel/Fallen. We can thus deduct from this, that it is the presence of the angelic soul that enables a human to work “real” magic. Now let’s ask ourselves what differentiates Fallen Evocations and human Spheres of magic. Evocations work within the concepts of Creation, and is not effected by Paradox. On the other hand, Evocations are not as flexible as the human Spheres. Also, what differentiates humans from Fallen/Angles? The ability for creative thought. The ability to make intuitive leaps of thought and conclusions. Based on these considerations I’d consider it likely that Lilith while gaining the powers of an Elohim, retains her human ability to apply her ability to affect, twist, and modify Creation in a much more free and creative manner than a regular Elohim using Evocations. If this is in fact the case, then Lilith can in fact at once be both a “Demon” and a Mage, which could account for her being referred to as the first Verbena.


Ultimately I'd argue that if we assume that God isn't the omnipotent, omniscient creature that Christianity and Demon the Fallen would make him/her/it ("he" from hereon, for the sake of simplicity) out to be, but rather is just a very powerful "Angel", and that the Lucifer from Demon the Fallen isn't the same Lucifer being referred to in Revelations of the Dark Mother, then Lilith is really a "human" created by God, who has then managed to ascend to the same level of power as God (even if she lacks some of the wisdom and understanding...). Lilith is in other words a being similar to God, who might arguably have created her own "Garden" (which I suppose that one could interpret as another "Creation", using Demon the Fallen terms). Lilith could theoretically be the "Mother of Monsters", the first Verbena/Mage, a Demon, another God, and/or a theoretical representation of the pinnacle of human potential.

Personally I like to think of her as a being that is similar to God in power, but who lacks the near omniscient understanding to duplicate God's Creation (his Garden), and who has thus created some alternative realities to our own, but which have included some other creatures (monsters).

Anyway, hope you can use this for some inspiration.


/Kyrel

[Bandiger]

A fun little gnostic tidbit is that one sect believes that the "god" of the old testament, Yehovah, is as Kyrel says, a creation of the allmaker who is not actually omnipotent, omniscient, omnislash, and all that. However, giving a Christian (and antisemitic) spin on the issue, these gnostics believed that christians worshiped the true allmaker, whose existence that Jesus guy made them aware of. But wait, who's that other "god?" Well, his name's not actually Yehovah, it's Yawgmoth (yes, you magic the gathering fans can have a good long chuckle here), and though he honestly meant well, not being perfect, he led his people astray. He also just happens to be Satan.
Now how does this relate to Lilith? Well, it's quite interesting given the latter half or so of Revelations of the Dark Mother (thank you very much Kyrel for the info, it's highly intriguing). Lilith and God spend seven days making out like those crazy mammals on the Discovery channel, then Lilith goes on a quick little trip, comes back and finds her old boytoy in the subordinate position to the "real" god, and then they get up to all sorts of wacky hijinx. Those spoony demons

[Bandiger]

Oh, what sillies we are. Seems this topic has come up before. Though many may no longer be around to debate their points, let's look into the past. Also, I wanna do some thread necromancy!






poof!
Brains!

[Apophatos]

I didn't know where to post this at but...

So what does anyone know about Adam's first wife, the "Mother of Monsters", And The "First Feminist"? what is her main goal/motive? Is she a valuable ally or antagonist? Better yet has anyone used her in a Vampire/Demon chronicle and how did you portray her?

Lilith is certainly an interesting figure in traditional and contemporary popular mythology. I'm not familiar with any of the details in the "Revelations of the Dark Mother," or such, but perhaps some of the unadorned aspects of Lilith's characteristics might prove helpful.

Lilith's portrayal in Jewish mythology is almost entirely sexual. G-d creates Lilith at Adam's request after Adam complains about not having a proper mate and feels unsatisfied having sex with animals. G-d creates Lilith out of poorer quality dirt than Adam in order to satisfy Adam's appetite, as it were. In addition, Lilith is joined in this capacity by Naamah (either a separate demoness or an aspect of Lilith), and as a result delivers a whole host of demons "that still plague mankind" (including Lord Asmodeus). According to this view, while Lilith may in fact be the mother of demons, Adam is clearly their father. Tradition also informs us that Lilith and Naamah visited Solomon disguised as two prostitues (again with the sexual reference).

Lilith rejected Adam, apparently finding their sexual posture to be unreflective of her status as an equal to him. Adam tried to force himself on her, and she flew away.

G-d then sent three angels to bring Lilith back to Adam. She was found at the edge of the Red Sea, an area abundant with lustful demons. There, as a result of her immoderate sexual indulgence with the (it is implied) demonic inhabitants, she gave birth to 100 demons a day. Lilith refused to be brought back to Adam, saying that she was no longer fit to be a proper housewife. On a separate matter, she states that G-d had designated her to oversee all newborn children. The suggestion is that she is responsible for the mysterious deaths of infants. She promises to spare children in the event that they are protected by a talisman bearing the names of the angels sent to fetch her.

There is certainly sufficient mythological resources for Lilith to be a lofty figure: the prolific and fecund mother of demons, slayer of infants, and disobediant to the commands of G-d. A worthy adversary of any troupe.

But that is probably the story your troupe is expecting. I prefer my WOD mythology to be somewhat more misleading and "meta" than what is simply on the surface of the narrative. One option may be to include the "textual criticism" of the Lilith story with the content of the text.

Lilith seems to have been a device to rectify the apparent contradiction between Gen 1: 27 "So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them" in which G-d creates "male" and "female" humankind on the sixth day of creation and the Garden of Eden passage after Gen 2:4 in which Adam is made from dust and has no female counterpart. One way to avoid any potential inconsistency is for Lilith to represent the "female" of day 6 without displacing the story of the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. By integrating the more "meta" element of textual criticism Lilith, then, is evoked in order to serve as mortar between two otherwise untenable stories. Lilith serves as some kind of sediment (to continue the traditional metaphor) filling in gaps, resolving contradictions, and creating order and harmony between different traditions spliced together. And how, in this case, is Lady Lilith evoked? How is a "divine creature" repaid for being asked to reduce the friction within a sacred book that many believe to be the principal witness to the Creator and Sustainer of the universe? By turning her into orgiastic rape fantasy. Not very flattering, to say the least. How would this complex Lilith then balance these two aspects? Would she become the "Scorned Mother?" The "Abandoned and Unthanked Widow?" In this case Lilith seems to adopt similar features as Medea: the scorned lover who seeks to avenge the loss of her dignity: less upon Adam, than upon those who chose to evoke her harmonising and ordering qualities (powerful enough to hold the Torah together) in such a vulgar and humiliating fashion.

Perhaps she is welcoming of those who have the insight to see through her lies, and rewards them with the gift of harmony and the unification of opposites. Or perhaps she is rightfully quite offended and not so happy with humanity after all.

Apo

[Blood Lore]

Lilith is certainly an interesting figure in traditional and contemporary popular mythology. I'm not familiar with any of the details in the "Revelations of the Dark Mother," or such, but perhaps some of the unadorned aspects of Lilith's characteristics might prove helpful.

Lilith's portrayal in Jewish mythology is almost entirely sexual. G-d creates Lilith at Adam's request after Adam complains about not having a proper mate and feels unsatisfied having sex with animals. G-d creates Lilith out of poorer quality dirt than Adam in order to satisfy Adam's appetite, as it were. In addition, Lilith is joined in this capacity by Naamah (either a separate demoness or an aspect of Lilith), and as a result delivers a whole host of demons "that still plague mankind" (including Lord Asmodeus). According to this view, while Lilith may in fact be the mother of demons, Adam is clearly their father. Tradition also informs us that Lilith and Naamah visited Solomon disguised as two prostitues (again with the sexual reference).

Lilith rejected Adam, apparently finding their sexual posture to be unreflective of her status as an equal to him. Adam tried to force himself on her, and she flew away.

G-d then sent three angels to bring Lilith back to Adam. She was found at the edge of the Red Sea, an area abundant with lustful demons. There, as a result of her immoderate sexual indulgence with the (it is implied) demonic inhabitants, she gave birth to 100 demons a day. Lilith refused to be brought back to Adam, saying that she was no longer fit to be a proper housewife. On a separate matter, she states that G-d had designated her to oversee all newborn children. The suggestion is that she is responsible for the mysterious deaths of infants. She promises to spare children in the event that they are protected by a talisman bearing the names of the angels sent to fetch her.

There is certainly sufficient mythological resources for Lilith to be a lofty figure: the prolific and fecund mother of demons, slayer of infants, and disobediant to the commands of G-d. A worthy adversary of any troupe.

But that is probably the story your troupe is expecting. I prefer my WOD mythology to be somewhat more misleading and "meta" than what is simply on the surface of the narrative. One option may be to include the "textual criticism" of the Lilith story with the content of the text.

Lilith seems to have been a device to rectify the apparent contradiction between Gen 1: 27 "So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them" in which G-d creates "male" and "female" humankind on the sixth day of creation and the Garden of Eden passage after Gen 2:4 in which Adam is made from dust and has no female counterpart. One way to avoid any potential inconsistency is for Lilith to represent the "female" of day 6 without displacing the story of the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. By integrating the more "meta" element of textual criticism Lilith, then, is evoked in order to serve as mortar between two otherwise untenable stories. Lilith serves as some kind of sediment (to continue the traditional metaphor) filling in gaps, resolving contradictions, and creating order and harmony between different traditions spliced together. And how, in this case, is Lady Lilith evoked? How is a "divine creature" repaid for being asked to reduce the friction within a sacred book that many believe to be the principal witness to the Creator and Sustainer of the universe? By turning her into orgiastic rape fantasy. Not very flattering, to say the least. How would this complex Lilith then balance these two aspects? Would she become the "Scorned Mother?" The "Abandoned and Unthanked Widow?" In this case Lilith seems to adopt similar features as Medea: the scorned lover who seeks to avenge the loss of her dignity: less upon Adam, than upon those who chose to evoke her harmonising and ordering qualities (powerful enough to hold the Torah together) in such a vulgar and humiliating fashion.

Perhaps she is welcoming of those who have the insight to see through her lies, and rewards them with the gift of harmony and the unification of opposites. Or perhaps she is rightfully quite offended and not so happy with humanity after all.

Apo

I guess I may be right all along that the Abrahamic Mythology/Jewish mythology that Revelations of the Dark Mother is based on is actually inherently sexist/misogynist against women which I found a good reason that it should be not used as the central cosmology of the OWoD at all hence it's one of the reasons why I don't like Demon so much and I mostly prefer a Werewolf/Mage/Wraith/Fae/Changeling centric cosmology instead while the Abrahamic characters/realms (including Demons) should be left as mythic ages/bygone fodder if I ran my games.

This post has been edited by Blood Lore: 09 May 2009 - 05:40 AM

[Bebop Cola]

I guess I may be right all along that the Abrahamic Mythology/Jewish mythology that Revelations of the Dark Mother is based on is actually inherently sexist/misogynist against women which I found a good reason that it should be not used as the central cosmology of the OWoD at all hence it's one of the reasons why I don't like Demon so much and I mostly prefer a Werewolf/Mage/Wraith/Fae/Changeling centric cosmology instead while the Abrahamic characters/realms (including Demons) should be left as mythic ages/bygone fodder if I ran my games.

If you only look at this one facet through the narrow lens of your modern perspective, then you may be correct.

Alternatively you might consider that Lilith, as depicted here, represents a form of female empowerment to define her own sexuality and her own relationship to God where Adam simply obeyed what he was told.

[Blood Lore]

Alternatively you might consider that Lilith, as depicted here, represents a form of female empowerment to define her own sexuality and her own relationship to God where Adam simply obeyed what he was told.

Sure I can see it that way, but it also brings me to the point why I created this thread originally in the first place.

You see over at the White Wolf forums people over there kept using Lilith as a villain which I tried to tell them that was sexist because she represents female empowerment against Abrahamic patriarchy and yet this turn around against me saying that I was a sexist because I won't allow a powerful female villain but they kept missing the point that Lilith originally was a victim of misogyny and it gets even worse that they even said that "God was the protagonist" which at this point I thought they were completely out of their minds.

Well here's the threads I'm talking about

http://forums.white-...1708.aspx#61708
http://forums.white-.../3667. aspx#3667

This post has been edited by Blood Lore: 09 May 2009 - 06:21 AM

[Bebop Cola]

Sure I can see it that way, but it also brings me to the point why I created this thread originally in the first place.

You see over at the White Wolf forums people over there kept using Lilith as a villain which I tried to tell them that was sexist because she represents female empowerment against Abrahamic patriarchy and yet this turn around against me saying that I was a sexist because I won't allow a powerful female villain but they kept missing the point that Lilith originally was a victim of misogyny and it gets even worse that they even said that "God was the protagonist" which at this point I thought they were completely out of their minds till the point I actually started to 'agree' with them by the point they labeled me sexist which forced me to jump ahead of their thinking (well to actually to avoid a flame war as the true reason I did it).

Well here's the threads I'm talking about

http://forums.white-...1708.aspx#61708
http://forums.white-.../3667. aspx#3667

You seem to confuse the games with reality, as if those games are a factual depiction of real events therefore should be treated with all the care of real interactions. They are not. They are made-up pretend play. In a game I can be an astronaut-cowboy-racecar driver, but that doesn't mean I live in space, or own a racecar, or wear a six-gallon hat in real life. I can be an evil person or a good person. If I shoot people down in the street in the game, that doesn't mean the police need to come arrest me in real life.

You decided, at some point, that in your view, the abrahamaic god is a bad guy and that treating women poorly and ordering his followers to do likewise is just one of his many injustices.

#1. Not everyone agrees with you. Arguably, most do not.
#2. The texts you reference are complex and have a myriad of interpretations. Entire religions have splintered over differing interpretations and entire academic careers are built on studying and understanding those interpretations.
#3. These are games, and in games anything can be true, including the idea that the christian god is infallibly correct in everything that appears in the bible. That means, within that game context, that Lilith is a villain and such an assertion is not sexist.

You know, I'm really having a hard time figuring out how to reply to you anymore. You seem so invested in seeing injustice everywhere that it is hard to see anything you say as rational. You make accusations of injustice so freely that you cheapen them. Good job...

[Michael]

You see over at the White Wolf forums people over there kept using Lilith as a villain which I tried to tell them that was sexist because she represents female empowerment against Abrahamic patriarchy and yet this turn around against me saying that I was a sexist because I won't allow a powerful female villain but they kept missing the point that Lilith originally was a victim of misogyny and it gets even worse that they even said that "God was the protagonist" which at this point I thought they were completely out of their minds.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Just because Lilith has suffered abuse, does that excuse anything she does? (Actualy I'd say yes, but anyway...) Or more accurately does that mean she should be allowed to do what ever she wants, no matter the consequences for everyone else? If Lilith is about to use my soul for dental floss, then I think I am well within my rights to treat her as an enemy, however much abuse she's suffered.

You've missed that most of the antagnoists in the WoD have good reasons for what they do. You want injustice? What about the Wyrm? Not it's fault the Weaver trapped it, and drove it insane. That said, do I agree with it's project to destory creation and be set free... not really no, seeing as I quite like that creation. I think the WoD benefits quite nicely by being crowned with a supreme injustice. Yes there's a god, yes he's infallible, but no he doesn't like you, or anyone else for that matter.

[Apophatos]

Sure I can see it that way, but it also brings me to the point why I created this thread originally in the first place.

You see over at the White Wolf forums people over there kept using Lilith as a villain which I tried to tell them that was sexist because she represents female empowerment against Abrahamic patriarchy and yet this turn around against me saying that I was a sexist because I won't allow a powerful female villain but they kept missing the point that Lilith originally was a victim of misogyny and it gets even worse that they even said that "God was the protagonist" which at this point I thought they were completely out of their minds.

Well here's the threads I'm talking about

http://forums.white-...1708.aspx#61708
http://forums.white-.../3667. aspx#3667

While it's certainly true that Lilith has been reclaimed by some as a symbol of feminist empowerment and emancipation as you suggest (see "Lilith Fair" for example), I think it is quite unlikely that that is the most consistent interpretation of the tradition. I have a bit of a hard time swallowing much of feminist hermeneutics. Not because I am unsympathetic with their desire to address the inconsistencies in power relations between the sexes (I am not), but because I believe feminist hermeneutics in general fails to do so. It seems to me as though the current incarnation of feminist hermeneutics has an ultimately disempowering relationship with victimisation, fails to rise beyond engendered models of morality (in general "Feminism" encapsulates all good things and "Patriarchy" encapsulates all bad things. Those terms, however, are engendered. Why are there no terms to encapsulate negative female traits or positive male traits?) and is cynically interwoven with postmodernism and neomarxism (which, personally, I hold in the lowest regard).

I don't see Lilith in her traditional symbol as being a symbol of female emancipation in the least. She was clearly cast as the mother of demons, and portrayed in many ways as being antithetical to what a proper woman was imagined (or fantasised) to be. Lilith was created primarily to satisfy Adam's sexual desires, not be an equal partner, and the tradition describes her as being created out of poorer quality material than the dust Adam was formed from. As her story was written long after it was established that Adam and Eve were the primordial married couple, Lilith never had a chance to be anything other than Adam's disposable sexual object.

But before citing this as proof of the irredeemable patriarchy of the western canon (which it may in fact be) and worse, the irredeemable and unplayable characteristic of, IMHO, a very inspired setting for the oWOD, I would care to draw your attention to a different interpretation that may less offend your sensibilities while maintaining the integrity of the tradition. Rather than Lilith representing an image of womanhood, why can Lilith not represent an image of male sexuality? As I mentioned, the tradition portrays Lilith almost as a sexual caricature and hardly a "person" in any real sense. Lilith may be better suited as an image of the fears, frustrations, and fantasies of a bunch of 40-year old married Talmudic scholars rather than their wives. This interpretation would not require any rewriting, reimagining, or significant reinterpreting of Lilith or her role in the deuterocanonical narrative. It does, however, remove her from any semblance of being representative of the female. She is a personification and projection of male energy, not a caricature of female energy. Thus, it is (rightly so) men who are responsible for Lilith's demonic aura, and not in any sense the character of the female.

I'm sure that some in the Lilith Fair crowd may want to string me up for taking their patron saint away, and it is certainly not my intention to remove an empowering figure from the Feminists (even though, as I said, it would seem to me that Lilith is useful as a genuinely empowering Feminist symbol only by significantly rewriting her story). However, I also want to demonstrate that what may appear to be a criticism of women may in fact be a criticism of men, instead, and thus suggest that neither the tradition, and by extention D:tF may not be so horribly disfigured as you suggest.


Regards,

Apo

[Blood Lore]

While it's certainly true that Lilith has been reclaimed by some as a symbol of feminist empowerment and emancipation as you suggest (see "Lilith Fair" for example), I think it is quite unlikely that that is the most consistent interpretation of the tradition. I have a bit of a hard time swallowing much of feminist hermeneutics. Not because I am unsympathetic with their desire to address the inconsistencies in power relations between the sexes (I am not), but because I believe feminist hermeneutics in general fails to do so. It seems to me as though the current incarnation of feminist hermeneutics has an ultimately disempowering relationship with victimisation, fails to rise beyond engendered models of morality (in general "Feminism" encapsulates all good things and "Patriarchy" encapsulates all bad things. Those terms, however, are engendered. Why are there no terms to encapsulate negative female traits or positive male traits?) and is cynically interwoven with postmodernism and neomarxism (which, personally, I hold in the lowest regard).

I don't see Lilith in her traditional symbol as being a symbol of female emancipation in the least. She was clearly cast as the mother of demons, and portrayed in many ways as being antithetical to what a proper woman was imagined (or fantasised) to be. Lilith was created primarily to satisfy Adam's sexual desires, not be an equal partner, and the tradition describes her as being created out of poorer quality material than the dust Adam was formed from. As her story was written long after it was established that Adam and Eve were the primordial married couple, Lilith never had a chance to be anything other than Adam's disposable sexual object.

But before citing this as proof of the irredeemable patriarchy of the western canon (which it may in fact be) and worse, the irredeemable and unplayable characteristic of, IMHO, a very inspired setting for the oWOD, I would care to draw your attention to a different interpretation that may less offend your sensibilities while maintaining the integrity of the tradition. Rather than Lilith representing an image of womanhood, why can Lilith not represent an image of male sexuality? As I mentioned, the tradition portrays Lilith almost as a sexual caricature and hardly a "person" in any real sense. Lilith may be better suited as an image of the fears, frustrations, and fantasies of a bunch of 40-year old married Talmudic scholars rather than their wives. This interpretation would not require any rewriting, reimagining, or significant reinterpreting of Lilith or her role in the deuterocanonical narrative. It does, however, remove her from any semblance of being representative of the female. She is a personification and projection of male energy, not a caricature of female energy. Thus, it is (rightly so) men who are responsible for Lilith's demonic aura, and not in any sense the character of the female.

I'm sure that some in the Lilith Fair crowd may want to string me up for taking their patron saint away, and it is certainly not my intention to remove an empowering figure from the Feminists (even though, as I said, it would seem to me that Lilith is useful as a genuinely empowering Feminist symbol only by significantly rewriting her story). However, I also want to demonstrate that what may appear to be a criticism of women may in fact be a criticism of men, instead, and thus suggest that neither the tradition, and by extention D:tF may not be so horribly disfigured as you suggest.
Regards,

Apo

However, if you look what I just bold faced, I can point out the some proof of the irredeemable patriarchy in western canon...as you can see there are no empowered female figures in Abrahamic mythology since all of them seems to be portrayed as either sex objects (Lilith) or just chattel (Eve) since none of these characters were equal partners to Adam and thus women are basically reduced to two dimensional stock characters (the "damsel in distress" waiting to be rescued by males as if it's their "rightful property" to made into their slaves hence representing Eve and the femme fatales/bombshells/sex object bimbos which represent Lilith which you'll noticed this pattern when it comes to female characters in most of the media we have today) since you have to remember that Abrahamic mythology is heavily based on hierarchy and not equality which is the entire point of the mythology which is why I despise it alot. This means when your creating a female character in D:tF and other Abrahamic centric games using this logic then your female character rigidly has to be either a sex object or just a slave to their male counterparts because it has to correspond to the logic of the Abrahamic creation story is another main reason why I don't like using the Abrahamic mythology due to non-existence of the concept equality while hierarchy is the "natural law" set by God which is bullshit in my opinion. Thus this is the reason why I mostly prefer to have a Mage/Werewolf/Wraith/Changeing/Fae centric cosmology since If I wanted to create a female PC I want to be equal to my male counterparts not be subjected as a slave or be sex bimbo just because the first female ancestors were. So yeah, I mainly put the Abrahamic mythology into the same category as John Norman's Gor books and Steven Goldberg's/Stephen Pinker's bullshit mainly because of the sexist pseudoscience behind it like the concept of Original Sin for example.

This post has been edited by Blood Lore: 10 May 2009 - 07:13 AM

[Krieg]

Blore, this is not a black or white thing, this isn't "Equal------------------------------ -------------------------------------chattel" , there are grays inbetween. and "Equal" is entirely subjective. Do you want your women to have a cock and balls and be able to sire children? No.

There *ARE* differences between genders, to ask people to ignore them is insane. (Minimize them? yeah, that's a attainable goal, but people have strengths in different areas, but Fuck that, Everyone should be equally awesome at everything and let's go off and have icecream and cake and be happy)

[Blood Lore]

Blore, this is not a black or white thing, this isn't "Equal------------------------------ -------------------------------------chattel" , there are grays inbetween. and "Equal" is entirely subjective. Do you want your women to have a cock and balls and be able to sire children? No.

There *ARE* differences between genders, to ask people to ignore them is insane. (Minimize them? yeah, that's a attainable goal, but people have strengths in different areas, but Fuck that, Everyone should be equally awesome at everything and let's go off and have icecream and cake and be happy)

Well, The equality that I'm actually about talking is women taking equal roles in society (like becoming techinations, engineers, warriors, scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, developers, sorcerers, magicians, musicians, inventors, etc along side their male counterparts equally) and be treated the same way (and as equal partners) that men usually treat their own gender.

This post has been edited by Blood Lore: 10 May 2009 - 07:02 AM

[Krieg]

and... you...


God,


BLore what you want is for Humanity to change at a basic functioning level. Just.. Please stop, for the love of god Stop.

You see any difference as a slight, and any cause as one that needs to be championed at the potential expense of all logic and reason to the contrary.