[Temple]

I've speculated about various solutions to this. I know from what people have told me that the Infusion Art from KB: Nockers sucks, so thats pretty much out.

What I want here is house rules, personal solutions and generally useful tidbits. Do your Nockers have to quest for chimerical materials, or can they just walk outside and grab an incidental chimera? Is there a specific roll involved, or do you wing it? Any particular skills beside Crafts that come in handy? Is spending Glamour neccesary for certain creations in your games? Just what do you think a Forged chimera should be able to do, reasonably?

And another question that is kinda related to this: How do you run chimerical reality? Are there chimera everywhere in your games? Do they only exist in places with high Glamour? Can everyone make them, or just Dreamers? Do they pop up at random? Are they relativly rarse, or is it impossible to turn around without stepping on one?

And many many more questions of that general nature...

[Annael]

Well, in our game, most living chimera are incidental. They just wander in out of the Deep Dreaming when someone imagines them. The closer to waking reality you get, the fewer there are (although they cluster around Freeholds, and the benign ones may live inside them). The weirder and more powerful ones find it hard to survive in such a comparatively Glamour-poor environment, so if you want to go hunt griffins, you'll probably have to head deeper into the Dreaming.

Almost every non-living thing that exists both in waking and chimerical reality has two versions--the 'real' one and a chimerical version. Thus, if you blew up the chimerical version of Grand Central Station, the real thing would still be standing there (although people might suddenly find that it's less interesting than before).

In places of very high Glamour, oddly, the opposite might hold true. Shakespeare's house, for example, may actually be the same building in both places. If a chimerical dragon were to tear down a wall, people in the real world would see it crumble. Occasionally, low-Glamour humans might even cross over into the Near Dreaming in such places, although in most cases they'd fall back out as soon as they left the location.

Our ST rules that if you create an illusion and infuse it with Glamour, then it *might* become a chimera. Infusing illusions with Glamour enables them to exist without you constantly supporting them yourself, but they will eventually fade unless something else happens. A Childing could 'adopt' a talking butterfly made that way, and in such a case it could become a true chimera after it's fed enough Glamour.

Creating chimerical devices is more complicated. Nockers use their crafting/smithing/technology skills and infuse the parts with Glamour as they work on them. The process becomes easier if the enchanted parts are made out of something that's already magical, because then they only have to mold the Glamour that's already in there. But only Nockers and House Dougal know how to do it that way. Everyone else has to use more laborious enchanting processes like...erm, 'normal' people if they want to make such a thing.

The more powerful the object, the harder it will be to create. A character of mine took a commission to craft a flying ship. She decided that this wasn't just going to fly, it was going to be a ship of legend, and her name would be sung through the generations as a great craftsman. But she was only able to build it because she got the Eshu behind her. She started talking about all the quests to unexplored places she'd have to go on, all the glory that would be given to any of her companions, and so on. She also got a few lords to help her by describing the gratitude and favors her patron (the very bitchy wife of a prince) would shower upon them for their assistance. This all resulted in no fewer than six quests into the Dreaming, which took more than a year of gameplay to complete.

This post has been edited by Annael: 27 January 2005 - 07:34 PM

[effex100]

Whats all this about Infusion sucking? I don't think I've ever encountered a Nocker without it.

Anyway a Nocker might need to quest for materials for something really amazing they want to build but for most things I don't bother.

For skills you should require Chimerical alchemy for anything that required chemical reactions and Gematria for anything that requires physics or electricity. (these are in the Nocked Kithbook) Infusion 3 allows for the creation of FUBARS that Nockers often use as batteries and power sources.

I allow incedental chimera to be made stable in 3 different ways. Infusion to harden them, Dreamcraft to anchor them or a lot of attention and Glamour over an extended period of time.

Anything that can work on it's own to perform tasks without someone controlling it directly (a chimerical computer that can run programs, a robot that works on voice commands, ect) should require Infusion 4.

On chimerical reality, it usually varies by area banality levels. I usually use chimera when needed but don't over saturate things. If I want lots of fantastic creatures I usually put the players in the Dreaming.

[kalirush]

Whats all this about Infusion sucking? I don't think I've ever encountered a Nocker without it.

Well, and that's the problem, right? Any nocker worth their salt buys *only* Infusion and must have Fae up to 5. My ST (Gath) got irritated with nockers having to be so limited, magically speaking. So he outlawed the Art.

He worked out a bunch of workarounds, but I can't recall what they are. I'll make him post when he gets back from watching third graders for the day.

Julia
satyr linguist

[effex100]

Yeha the last three levels do require fae 5 don't they. Thats not a big deal in a LARP but by TT XP thas a lot.

Why not make a work around for needing Fae 5 rather then outlawing the art?

[Loyalone]

Actually, its not like you have to work around a damn thing. Any st worth his salt should allow a knocker to RP making a golem over time. Its what they do, and its a character goal, maybe even story worthy.

[Loyalone]

Ok I forgot why I was posting. Damn

Here it is.. how I make stuff.

I make 4 different kinds of "stuff". Its important, so pay attention.

Firstly, theres just hand made chimera. Any idiot with crafts can make this. After all, a chimerical needle and chimerical cloth CAN interact people. Turns out, you pooka CAN sew!

Second, forged chimera. this is made from making stuff near balefire. You dont "forge" cloth, but for the purposes of this, you can. Increase the diff to make it, (cuz it might burn in the balefire) but the payback is that +2 vs resisting banal damage. To be fair, only knocker should "forge". If others try, I think it would downgrade the birthright of the kith.

Thirdly, magic items. This is where I use "dreamstuff". The purest of pure. So long as you can use a few magic object together, throw in some MAJOR work on it, and time as well, magic stuff appears. Heres an example. Some bloodreeds (a swamp weed that is so sharp on its edges it cuts the hands of those that touch it, and soaks the blood up to grow), so lion pelts, and some oil from the grand clocks of the ticktock realm.. and we fashioned together a cloak that regenerated wounds as per the merit in the book. Also, we used the EXACT same materials to make a suit of armour that gave back damage to an attacker, making him soak the number of wound levels he did. There was a lot of successes needed, but the group wanted them, and by that point in the game, such items were of a suitable level of power to give out, if they made the time to do it.

Lastly, artifacts. Artifacts are made when you get a magic item (number 3) and use naming level 4. (thats right! theres a SECOND use!) In this fashion, caliburn was made, and a host of other thingies. You dont HAND out artifacts, its the purpose of a whole chronicle. In all my games, we only made ONE, an hourglass formed from dreamstuff all over the entire dreaming, and that was to help become a bunk of such power that the group could go back and reverse a terrible wrong they had commited themselves, but innocents suffered for.

As you can see, each one of these creation rules expands on the one before it. That means, the characters will grow with xp, and then grow to try new things.

If you feel you need limits, try saying "you cant do this till you have at least X amount in this skill". Such as, you would need a certain level of greymare and arts to make a magic item that had certain powers to enchant the item. Theres nothing wrong with setting limits, and the group will nderstand why they cant START with such items. If they dont, you are playing the wrong game with the wrong group.

Understand I am a vet. These are the rules I use, and after almost 9 years of just THIS game.. I am used to it. I started my forst game with little more then to knockers and one fiona sidhe (my best friend lotuse, whom I love dearly.) These rules worked, and even WITH 2 knockers, they didnt abuse. The story came first, the toys came with it. After all, if you sit on your ass and just make powerful weapons, then so do the bad guys. They were smart enough to realize it, and just went with the flow. I loved that group.

[gatharion]

Ah Infusion, how I hate thee, let me count the ways...

1. To be a decent nocker you *must* take this art. What the Hell is with that? It's worse than a sidhe being expected to know Sovereign.

2. The art is useless without Fae 5, way to hamstring nockers magically while pissing all over the entire realm system.

3. Like Cavan was sort-of saying, the way that the "Forge Chimera" birthright is written doesn't actually make a lot of sense. "To create chimera, the nocker needs raw chimerical material and a forge or machine shop of some kind." Well duh, but why would only nockers be able to do that? By definition a changeling actively within her fae mien can interact with chimerical items and material, the Dougal sidhe and boggans have quite a reputation for fine chimerical works themselves. The way I see it, what makes the nockers such extra spanky crafters is that they can "harden" chimerical material like in the cantrip, but as a natural part of their birthright. It also means that they aren't forced to buy Infusion in order to do something that is supposed to come naturally to them, forging chimera.

4. Level two, Toughen, I have two problems with this cantrip:
a) What goshdarn lazy so-and-so excuse of a nocker casts a murbin furbin cantrip to make his creations be tougher. Any nocker worth his hammer MAKES his inventions hale and hearty and doesn't depend on cantrips to do it for him.
B) Dear lord, look at what this power does and then compare it to Oakenshield. It's gross. Before I outlawed Infusion in my games the PCs were all running around with three or four extra permanent chimerical health levels. Look at the cantrip and think about it.

5. Spontaneous creation of FUBARs? Where the hell is the fun in that? In my games if the nockers want to use FUBARs then they have to either figure out how to make or grow them from scratch (you know, actually using their science skills and not just a magic trick?). Or they have to go hunt the little bastards down in the Dreaming; which has the added benifit of providing a potential source of barter for Aethernauts. Not having the Infusion art also means that *gasp* not every last lightning cannon, ornithopter, and toaster oven is powered by FUBARs. Lets see some more steamtech, clockwork, and static charges caused by rubbing two pookas together powering our chimerical toaster ovens.

6. Animantis, what's even the point of this as a cantrip? I mean really? It already requires you do the footwork. Your throwing of the switch should bring your golem to life, not the casting of a cantrip. A weird little limited cantrip at that. I also resent that it says golems must be powered by FUBARs, I can't have clockwork men? Well piss on you, you banal little prescriptivist of a cantrip.

7. Gilgul? Let's having a freaking story here, not just a bunk and a casting. Maybe your non-sentient golem slowly gains awareness ala Bicenntenial Man. Maybe you go questing into the Deep Dreaming so that the golem can be awakened by immerision into the center of the world's collective psyke. Maybe you must find away to transfer the consciousness of a fadding sentient chimera into this mechanical body. Plus, like the last two levels of Infusion, it's really a rather limited cantrip. One-trick pony if you will.

If you dissagree with my feelings on these things that's fine, but I have been much happier with nockers in my games ever since I kicked out Infusion. My nocker players have been happier to. They can still do all the same stuff that they could with Infusion, but now they can apply their science skills more than their magic skills for making stuff (making their science skills more worthwhile) and are not nearly as constrained in their arts and realms.

[Aife]

I find Infusion dissatisfying as well. There is no Nocker player character in my chronicles anyway but a House Dougal Sidhe. There is nowhere explained how they create chimerical items.
So I was going to think of something for him. But due to lack of time I didn't get to do this. So diverted his attention from building items to pressing matters that had to be dealt with first and made it hard for him to find ingredients.

Now that problem has solved itself for I like Loyalones solution and will use it. Thanks.

[Loyalone]

You are welcome.

....

Infusion still sucks.

[Spikey]

I have more to say on this, but limited time so I'll come back later if nobody minds. The quick point I did want to make was that while I think Infusion needs tweaking (and I used a net published addition that I think Loyalone must have seen too, with the three items etc), what it eventually leads to are dramatic story driven objects (Treasures). So needing a great deal of Art, Realm, crafts and manual skills and in game time before you can make anything of import never worried me so much. (By never, i mean rarely)

We did impliment a house rule like the Automatic success rule. Basic and simple Chimera from the books could be made by the Nocker if he had Infusion to a relavent level. I think (without checking) the Sneakers from KB Pooka were like a level 2 Chimera and so I allowed the Nocker to produce a pair over time just because he'd bought Infusion beyond level 2. But that was, as I say , a quick fix.

Nocker's don't have to have Infusion to be Nocker's though. It is perfectly possible to have Nocker's who work in non magical crafts. Building Tunnels beneath the Freehold, creating concealed body armour for her Oathcircle to protect against real damage, Car modifications. There are many Arts and abilities that suit the Nocker's penchant that can be produced without Infusion.

[Loyalone]

I got the 3 thing from dreams and nightmares. A great book.

I feel still that the introduction of gemetria and chimerical alchemy were a good enough replacement for the infusion art, a point I think gath and I failed to mention. Why make new skills which, combined with your old skills, become obsolete with that art? Or mostly obsolete. Or absurdly present with little point.

[sinystra]

I'm a pooka fan myself or a sidhe. I like playing those annoying pookas though. I did a nocker once.. didnt much care for them. Though did have a pooka put sugar in a nocker's gas tank once. *snickers* that was fun. One thing about pookas they know how to pull a prank to make a malkavian blush with envy. *eg*


Just my two cents..


As for having rules and such for what a nocker should make.. as long as it is within the book and have an Storyteller who is there to witness any rolls is ok with me.. and I will be plotting in a day or so for some Storylines

Sinystra

[Spikey]

There was a great article expanding on the gathering of items from dreams and Nightmares that I thought i had on my PC. however I seem to have lost it. Which is a shame as it Really encouraged anyone who crafted items to think about the ingredients. I'll add it to the list of things to search for again.

While I do still agree that Infusion makes some other very important abilities and skills worthless, I think theres room for some 'either / or' here. Infusion tends to take much of the journey (and the fun) out of creating Chimera and treasures, and for that reason needs revision. On the other hand, I can also see that perhaps some groups might want to sidestep this part of creation (not to my taste but hey).

I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks the Art of Infusion was salvagable, how they'd rewrite it to be more inclusive perhaps. I think that a better use for a Nocker /Doughal Art would have included the ability to merge non-sentiant (Mechanical) with the sentient, so they could have a system to create (Steam) Cybernetics like Nuada's silver arm, or Doctor Octopus type arms. The first level could also have been linked to the use, manipulation of balefire too, in my opinion.

[Swordsman]

While I don't get as detailed as he did, I'm with Loyalone here. I don't hate Infusion, but that's because I've not used it much. I've only had someone play a nocker once in my games, and I was very free-form with his creations. You guys have some very good points about Infusion that I will have to go back to.

I agree that there is something innate to nockers that allow them to create better, more permanent chimerical creations. But I look at it as creations, especially gadgets. So they wouldn't create "living" chimera, unless said chimera were golems or automatons. Similarly, they wouldn't simply create a pair of paints. 'Course, any self-respecting nocker couldn't resist adding an automatic zipper and other things to the pants (can you imagine what would happen with the imperfection on that one? ouch!). Since it's innate to their birthright, and if they can get ahold of the materials, and if they have a forge, and if it's a good idea, and if it's not too powerful, I let them use a simple Crafts roll.

Creating more serious things, such as Treasures, must absolutely require questing. The more powerful the artifact, the more questing there should be. Remember that the quest is a central part of all good fantasy and faerie stories.

Dougal sidhe I do similarly, and again run it more free-form. I like my games to encourage imagination and thinking, without getting too bogged down in rules. I know you need the structure of rules, but c'mon, nockers and Dougals are meant to be making things. I don't want to restrict that.

On the other side of things....in my games chimera are pretty much everywhere. They exist alongside normal humans in the Autumn world. However, the kinds and numbers of chimera depend on where you are. An area of great glamour would have many chimera that mirror that setting. So a gallery of art masters may have representations of the paintings, or of the dreams that people get when viewing them. A goth club with a great band may spark very dark, sluagh-like chimera. An insane asylum would be crawling with dangerous nervosa. When you go to areas of greater banality, the chimera become less frequent and weaker. Fear the lone chimera in an area of banality....it must be pretty darn strong!

[zenten]

I don't require anything to have infusion, infusion just makes certain things easier. Same as the nocker birthright, it's just that nockers are better at building many chimerical things, but they're not the only ones who can do so.

[Cybercat]

Given our discussion in the Book of Glamour thread I thought this might be a good thread to bring back to the light of day. There are some very good thoughts and ideas here about how things are made in CtD.