[Absinth_Minded]

Whenever I hear them mentioned or read that name, my mind starts working. Whether you see them as gentle healers or diabolic soul-stealers, they are a source of nigh-endless stories and character.
With the Salubri you can run a chronicle set in any time, ranging from a group of Unicorns trying to survive the smear campaign and purge initiated by the Tremere to a group of neonates (possibly even Usurpers) slowly coming to realise that the Salubri might not be as eeevil as they're cracked up to be.
What are your thoughts on this lost legacy?

[Malefic Polyhedron]

Oddly enough despite the length of time my troupe spent playing both wod and V:TDA, we never really dealt with them. Despite my fascination with them my players have always had a phenominal dislike and disdain for the Salubri in general. I've never quite been able to figure out exactly what their issue is with the Salubri. Half the troupe considers them weak, insignificant, and worthy of derision, this seems to be primarily driven by the their knowledge of the purge and Tremere diablarie of Saluot. Its always been a rather strange reaction in my opinion given how open-minded my group tends to be, but for one reason or another they have long insisted on making the Salubri the pariahs of the campaign.

However with the start of the new game, I'm planning on changing that a bit, I want to put a Salubri in a prominent role. Given their natural tendency to distrust, underestimate and dislike the Salubri, making an NPC Salubri a vital part of the campaign could prove to be interesting.

[Absinth_Minded]

I actually had that thought about your game, considering that the Tremere are going to play such a major role, it would be foolish to count the Salubri out of it.
Personallly I love the Salubri. After all, they are the perfect angsty vampire. They try to be humane and work against their very nature, all the while feeling the Beast clawing at them from the inside.

[Xolarin]

Why to hate the Salubri; Saulot.
"I start of good, but now I'm bad. Good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad, good, bad.
Oh! Time to fuck up EVERYTHING!"


Note, that I do not hate the Salubri, myself. I hate their progenitor.
Actually, I like their fight against the Beast - a fight they're bound to loose, eventually. Rather tragic.
And a clan who hate the Tremere, is a clan of my heart.
'Cause I do hate both Tremere ze Blude-Warl0ck and Clan Tremere.

This post has been edited by Xolarin: 15 May 2005 - 12:39 AM

[Absinth_Minded]

Xolarin has struck gold there. Saulot is the only thing I dislike about the Salubri as well. WW seemed to use him as a way to do anything outrageous and to solve any knots in the metaplot and to get them out of any corner they'd painted themselves into.

[Malefic Polyhedron]

Amen. Saulot, almost as annoying as Sam Haight. Hell, in a lot of ways Saulot is more annoying then Haight. At least Haight was consistent, even if he was the ultimate Deus Ex Machina.

This post has been edited by Malefic Polyhedron: 15 May 2005 - 01:21 AM

[Absinth_Minded]

Saulot was a little... flippant, yes. But if we disregard the progenitor and focus on the clan, what have you done with them and what would you like to do?

[Malefic Polyhedron]

Well in our games, the Salubri have rarely if ever shown up. The players have based their opinions on the write up of the clan. They tend to view them as being weak because of their quest for redemption. My plan in dark ages is to introduce a Salubri during the Massassa war who is not only forgiving regarding the actions of the Tremere, but is interested in their redemption. He believes that not only did the Tremere damn themselves through their entry into vampire-hood, but he and his clan are also responsible due to Tremere's diablerie of Saulot. He is attempting to redeem individual Tremere and ultimately his desired goal is to redeem Tremere himself. He beleives that if Tremere is redeemed it will free the clan who unwittingly followed him. The tricky part is not having him viewed as a rube by my players not only because of his clan, but because of what is sure to be viewed as the utter naivete of his ultimate goal. I want to use him as a barometer for the players as they ultimately become more and more monstrous, (I know my troupe, it may take a while but they inevitably degenerate) showing up and attempting to save them as well. I need to make him powerful enough to survive his own good intentions and have enough of a force of personality to seem believable.

[Xolarin]

Hmmm ... A campaign in ancient Greek with the Salubri as the guardians of justice and learning would be cool. Combined with the mystic powers of the Malkavians, Delphi could make helluwa setting.
Also, a campaign involving the athenian/spartenian war would be awesome.

The rise of the feudal-states of Europe in 600-800 AD ?? I'm sure the Ventrue and Salubri would have quite a fight during thar era.

And of course, the search for Golgonda.

[Siv Volk]

I tend to play up the persecution factor. I know this is DA, but I tend to use Salubri in modern games. Especially where the characters are younger, and therefore unlikely to have a starting bias against the Salubri. I try and get them to sympathize with and secretly aid the Salubri, though this can be a bit tricky sometimes.

In DA, I usually set it shortly after the emergence of the Tremere, and thus most Clans see the Salubri as wronged, not yet as creatures to be exterminated. Though, sometimes my Tremere bias guides me in these things.

And, I tend to ignore most meta-plot stuff with Saulot, other than the whole "diablierized by the Tremere and living in their progenitor's head, waiting to make his move" thing.

[Absinth_Minded]

After reading through your post Malefic Polyhedron, I must say that it sounds like a great idea. He should probably be pretty high on either the Road of Humanity or Heaven with a strong Aura to show that he truly means what he says, and he should in general be very clear about what he thinks about things. He shouldn't go around saying that everything can and should be redeemed, as that will ensure that they see him as naive. And if you aim to make him powerful enough to survive his good intentions, you can always make him a member of the Warrior caste. That can also be used to schock your players, who at first see this gentle and kind (read: naive) man trying to give flowers to cops, only to have that illusion crushed as he lets out a war-cry and pulls a sword at someone or something that wasn't completely evil (in the eyes of the PC's).

[Malefic Polyhedron]

Thanks Absinth Minded, I'm currently reading through the high/low guides right now, next on my list is Salubri clanbook. I haven't read it since it came out originally, but I think a refresher is in order.

I like the warrior idea, that would give him enough of an edge to throw the players for a loop if needed. I am thinking about leaning him toward road of humanity since I know none of the players will go for that one and since road of heaven will just enforce the idea in their heads that he is a 'bible thumping Jesus-freak' which will automatically start him off in a defecit in their eyes.

With the backdrop of both the Massasa war and the War of Omens, he should have plenty of oppertunity to espouse his beleifs as well as back them up. I am think about using him to convince the players to aid him in getting to a specific kindred, under the auspices of destroying the target. Have them do the intelligence gathering, insinuate themselves around the target and take out his protection, all so that the Salubri can make his way in and keep them from physically killing him. He can explain that he was speaking metaphorically and all he truly intends to 'destroy' is the target's sin and 'rebirth' him to virtue.

Thoughts?

[Blackmane]

Well, that could work, but I don't know wether a warrior Salubri is suited for that task. Off course there are exceptions, btu your average warrior will actually detroy somebody he has said he would destroy. And not use it as a metaphor. Also considering the fatc that they are stubborn might put them at a bit of a disatvantage politically speaking...

If you want the vampire in question to be resilient and resourcfull with no problem misguiding or outright lying I'd go for a Wu-Zao...

I know it sounds dumb but consider the Wu-Zao thief, he has the warrior Valeren along with is fortitude that should make sure he can pull a nasty trick or two when the party gets dangerous towards him. Aside form that they have no problems lying cheating and steling their way towards their objective. And if you want to surprise them about the Salubri there's no better way than introducing one who is as nasty as your average Ravnos. Of course the only thing is that the average Wu-Zao thief knows little to nothing about kindred society . But that can make him even more of a wild card and even get the pc's into trouble by blaming them...

[Dyado Vesco]

Of course me and Blackmane would eventually have to chime in...

The Salubri represent a different angle on Vampire for me and thats why I think Im so interested in them. If I resent anything, its the 3 eye thing. I know why it exists but I feel that it puts them up there as oddities where as if they just kept the basic theme and philosophy of the idea I think it would come off better and more accepted all aorund. It does make a dramatic tool when the eye opens though.

Anyways. The Salubri more then any other Clan (besides the Tzimisce who are more a dark reflection of this) put to question Vampire existence in itself. While all the other Clans exist for their motivation, the Salubri try to find out the meaning of why they exist. As created creatures, are they blights because of their very nature or because they succumb to it. A Salubri tries to live up to a greater ideal yet they are the same beings that any other Vampire is, blood drinking creatures that parasitically exist off of humanity. How can they reconcile that? Even as Healers, the fuel they use to empower their healing arts is based off of taking life from others. The Warriors feed on humanity to save it from other mosters. I think their struggles are the essence of VtM and DA. I think they would be even better served if not for the eye, because with it they just become some freaky side show, without it though they are like other vamps with a unique Discipline but more to it a unique role that can be focused on. Thats my opinion though.

To me, the Salubri plight is familiar yet different then the usual Vamp yarn. I mean yeah got the ow cliche good Vampire, but for the most part Salubri actually believe they are good. thats pretty strange against the other good vampire stereotypes. the use of valeran (Both Healer/Warrior) is a unique power that takes a slightly different angle to vampires. I just wished they ended up examining the Soul part of the powers more closely, to make them not just blood drinker but maybe soul drinkers too. To add more horror of course.

If you cant tell i spend a lot of time thinking about the Salubri. I find their philosophies interesting and worth examining in any game.

[Blackmane]

Well, you're right when you say that the third eye reduces a Salubri to a bit of a freak show. But personally I like it for two reasons really.

1. You say that it turns the Salubri into freak show and detracts from the fact that they're kindred as well. I say that it emphasises the fact that they are fundamentally different form the average kindred due to their believes and outlook on life and their existence. Sort of a symbolic reminder to the other vampires that they have learned to look beyong the basics of undead existence> find the reasoning behind their continued existence. And to me the third eye stands as a reminder to other vampires that the Salubri are kindred yet they stand apart form the rest...

2. The presence of the third eye sort of goes back to oriental legends. It is also a reference to Soul arts form the Keui-jin. In that context I think that the third eye perfectly sybolizes the fact that Valeren wasn't given to Saulot by Caine. Rather Saulot developed or discovered the discipline somewhere else. Borrowing the knowledge of strange creatures, and therefor also some of their alien physical make up...

Anyways, that's my reasoning in a nutshell. Hope it was usefull...

[Dyado Vesco]

Oh it is Blackmane, and I understood all that before I posted, I juts didn't feel like making my post longer. But since you brought it up let me address it.

See I understand that it does set them apart from other Kindred. But I am a big believer in subtleties and having the third eye is just too big a give away. Also are the Salubri different because of their beliefs or just because of the eye. Anyone can have the eye as shown by how others get it when learning Valeran, but the beliefs is another matter entirely. I agree with you though something should have been different, but I think something to do with their Aura or maybe seeing a third glowing eye in the aura would have been better then the actual eye. I know the eye is from the orient, but I think it would have been better if it stayed an eastern thing. But its not a big gripe

[JanetT]

Well, I like the Salubri, but I'm biased that way. I like the idea of vampires who are struggling to find what peace and redemption they can, whether through religion, or some more eastern-based moral philosophy. The whole mystery of what Golconda means is fun to explore, and the hardships the clan is faced with in the Dark Ages makes that goal all the more poignant.

The thing with Saulot is that he's neither entirely good nor entirely evil. He may have had the best of intentions originally, but as a flawed being, he made mistakes along the way -- and as an ancient and powerful being, those mistakes had devastating consequences, of which he is painfully aware. There are a lot of different directions you can take Saulot as a character (if indeed you're using him as one), or as a mythic figure -- he is a powerful icon of Kindred history no matter what you do with him, or what the "truth" really is.

The Salubri have been both idealized and demonized in Kindred mythology. They have suffered more than any other clan, both physically (being driven to the brink of extinction) and in reputation. But they're fascinating because of those very things -- and I think that's why players sometimes find it greatly appealing to play one of the "only" Salubri survivors. There's all that marvelous weight of tradition, of myth, and mystical powers attributed to them, and yet they are few, cursed and hunted, and must hide their identities. They have lost so very much of what past greatness they possessed (or what Kindred legends attribute to them). And they have lost their founder, and much of their own identity -- and they know where the blame for that lies.

So that provides a very interesting background to play with in developing a character. It works best, of course, if the player IS the only one, or the only one that matters -- the impact of Salubri is greatly weakened by making them common or frequently appearing. The air of mystery must be maintained, or they lose a lot of what makes them so appealing.

[Dyado Vesco]

Very good points. Well said.

I wonder though, since you brought up the whole playing the last of theme, is there truly any such thing when it comes to players? You see to many want to be the last Salubri/Cappodician/Ahrimane take your pick. While its fine for story telling just when do you step in and say i want the last period. I mean doesnt it lose its appeal if yet another player wants to do it?

Oh and another curious exploration. It seems that the Clans/Bloodlines that disappear are a recent phenomenon. Meaning from the Dark Ages up you will see instances of such occuring. But what if oWoD had games that went back further like Roman era and before that.) Do you think more there might have been more or less Clans/Bloodlines lurking about. For me I like to imagine that the Baali were actually a Clan in thier own right but their practices so disgusted the rest of their bretheren that they were slaughtered. Granted this takes away from the Saulot siring them but in my games I attribute other things to him.

[198505]

I think there is something in the Baali Clan Book about a massive army of Cainites attacking the a huge holding of the Baali ?
I do have the Baali clan book somewhere I'll look later for it and post back.

[Kiasyd]

Dyado Vesco, Malefic Polyhedron, good points well made! *bows* I will think on them more later if I may ... I have a Salubri NPC that I need to introduce further into my (currently stalled in exam season) Dark Ages game.

For myself, I excise and burn much of the Saulot-plot device. I really did not take to it at all. In my opinion, Saulot was made no more than cartoon evil and it made much more sense to give the Baali their own progenitor, as their Clanbook does.

Strong words for a Kiasyd!

When I first came into contact with the idea of the Salubri, the game was still more focussed around the search for Golconda or at least, the temporary redemption of winning the fight against the Beast. While the majority of Cainites were presented as not doing terribly well in that respect, the Salubri stood out for their difference as people who not only actively strove to do what was right, but also actively put themselves to trouble for others. Here were Cainites who stood one might say with the light. And then - well, there is no polite way to mention Diablerie

Salubri were all meant to be forced by their Sires to commit Diablerie, which was such a lot of nonsense that I promptly ignored it. I personally regard it as a half-baked idea, such being the price for a game still new enough to have fits of wild enthusiasm, more or less successfully according to your taste in such matters as Daughters of Cacophony*. ** It seemed a rather crass way of making the journey to Golconda difficult, as if it was somehow easy to be a good Vampire

I tend to be ... verbose on the subject, so I will endeavour to condense.

In my world:

Saulot is the Childe of Zillah and consanguineous of Malkav. He Sired but one Clan, the Salubri, and they were as he was seekers after Enlightenment. Saulot made a journey to the East, which meant India, the ultimate home of mysticism ***, where he made a study of many things and later came home to Enoch where he revealed the idea of Golconda to Caine and anyone who cared to know. But Enlightenment itself cannot be taught, only ways in which one might reach it; it has to be personally experienced, several hundred coffee-table books to the contrary And it is hard work, so there were few takers for so nebulous a concept right from the beginning. So the Salubri were never numerous.

Times went on, the Second City fell, and Saulot disappeared. He spent time in torpor while his Clan became scattered. The Tremere rose, Tremere decided that he needed some Antediluvian blood of his own and chose the "easiest" candidate, Saulot, who (for several reasons) could not resist. Persecution of the Salubri began in order to make Tremere's crime seem justified, and they became reviled as very devils in league with Hell (this from thrice-damned Usurpers ). Some Salubri could not resisit fighting back, and that is as far as I go with the notion of Warrior Salubri (when I first heard the idea I thought it was a joke, an oxymoron, but that was really because I had not heard of them before. Good things have been done with the idea; I just tend not to use it very much. If you do, good for you ) Even fewer Salubri survived those nights.

Because there are Elders who remember what happened, not everyone persecutes the Healers, but the Tremere disinformation campaign was added to the time of upheaval that saw the Anarch Revolt and the widespread destruction of those wild ages. It is hard to concentrate on the fiddly details of a semi-mythical lineage when the Inquisition is at one's door. So most Cainites never really came into contact with the objective truth.

In the modern nights, there are a very few Salubri, mostly living in secretive isolation or sheltered in secret by Princes who remember their ways, or can judge the advantage with the long perspective centuries give them, or want something from the Healers for poitical or other gains (or else just sufficiently dislike the Tremere ). Because the Salubri strive to remain close to or rediscover their Humanity, and the Sabbat officially wants no truck with such airy-fairy concepts, there are no Salubri in the Sabbat, where they emphatically do not belong anyway IMO. They are not really "in" the Camarilla either, except by default, not generally wanting to be listed anywhere

I have given some thought to why "no-one" seemed to help them against the Tremere. The whole list of Clans is credited with little more than excuses, the Cainite equivalent of "I would like to help, but I will be busy washing my hair". I am not certain, but I think it might be this: if one is a Cainite, commonly believed to be Damned, evil, and all such, Salubri can make one think on unpleasant matters. To dwell on one's contrasting faults. Someone who demonstrates a high moral standard, even without preaching to anyone around them, generates an uncomfortable feeling in certain others. Especially if they are as self-concerned as most Cainites are usually said to be! Now one could put oneself to a lot of fuss and trouble against those admittedly noveaux riches warlocks, or ... well, if left to itself, the problem would just go away. Rather like all those awkward questions raised by a remanent Humanity ... And so it did.

So: there are not many Salubri, who are some of the few genuinely good Cainites, or who strive to be; they are nothing to do with the Baali, and are looking for Golconda, Saulot is dead, and when Caine comes back he will look for his favourite Grandchilde and turn to Tremere thus:

"Who are you? And where's Saulot?"

I just thought the old idea of good Salubri was a nice fragment of light to throw all that darkness into sharp relief, you see

Kiasyd





*they have their adherents; I am not one, but diversity is good

**Not to mention Kiasyd

*** No jokes, if you please, about the Hippie trail ... It is not recorded that Saulot wore tye dye.