[Vayu]

Ok I am going to be stariting a two person RP with my wife here in the next couple of days. I am going to be starting the characters off as mortals. Now I think I am going to be using Absinth_Minded's stuff from over in the Vampiric strength thread. What I was all so wondering how you would do the generation backgroud. Lets say the vampire that embraces them is 8th Gen.

[sublime]

As far as I know, the only thing that would happen to a mortal who was embraced by an 8th generation vampire is that the mortal would become a 9th generation vampire of the same clan as their sire (unless there was some weird quirk of fate and the childe ended up Caitiff).

This post has been edited by sublime: 21 May 2005 - 01:40 AM

[Vayu]

As far as I know, the only thing that would happen to a mortal who was embraced by an 8th generation vampire is that the mortal would become a 9th generation vampire of the same clan as their sire (unless there was some weird quirk of fate and the childe ended up Caitiff).

So no Generation background? And wouldn't they still be Caitiff if they were left by the sire and not told what clan they were. There for not raised as the said clan?

[sublime]

Well, you can just assign 4 dots in the Generation background on their character sheet to make them 9th Generation if you wanted to. And if they were made with the same starting points as a mortal before becoming a vampire, you could give them some more points to spend in Attributes and Abilities to make up for how much fewer mortal characters get than vampire characters. I would say, if you did that, just make sure where the "bonus" points go makes sense for the character.

And yes, I think you're right... if a vampire embraces someone and then just abandons them without giving them any clue whatsoever to what they have become, there is a good chance the new vampire could end up Caitiff. I think I read somewhere that a lot of Caitiff are made by sires abandoning their childer, leaving the childer to figure out what they are on their own. Even if a vampire abandoned that way didn't end up an actual Caitiff (by that I mean a vampire with no specific traits of any clan), they would at least be a social Caitiff because their lineage would be unknown.

I hope what I said makes sense. Sometimes it seems what I mean ends up not as clear as I think it is.

This post has been edited by sublime: 21 May 2005 - 01:56 AM

[Vayu]

Well, you can just assign 4 dots in the Generation background on their character sheet to make them 9th Generation if you wanted to.  And if they were made with the same starting points as a mortal before becoming a vampire, you could give them some more points to spend in Attributes and Abilities to make up for how much fewer mortal characters get than vampire characters.  I would say, if you did that, just make sure where the "bonus" points go makes sense for the character.

And yes, I think you're right... if a vampire embraces someone and then just abandons them without giving them any clue whatsoever to what they have become, there is a good chance the new vampire could end up Caitiff.  I think I read somewhere that a lot of Caitiff are made by sires abandoning their childer, leaving the childer to figure out what they are on their own.  Even if a vampire abandoned that way didn't end up an actual Caitiff (by that I mean a vampire with no specific traits of any clan), they would at least be a social Caitiff because their lineage would be unknown.

I hope what I said makes sense.  Sometimes it seems what I mean ends up not as clear as I think it is.

Ohh it makes sense fully. Thanks for the help. As for the Caitiff thing yeah if one is left after being sired then you would be a caitiff, says so some were in the book. Though I would figure when you get to the lower gens, perhaps 6th and lower, I would believe the blood to be to strong to be a true caitiff.

What are others thoughts on that?

[sublime]

I read somewhere that the strength of the blood doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whether a vampire becomes Caitiff or not. According to that, you could technically have a 5th Generation Caitiff. Sometimes, the traits of a clan's blood just, for whatever reason, don't imprint itself on certain vampires. But if you want to run it so that if a sire's Generation is too strong that their childer will never be Caitiff, that's perfectly in your rights to do it that way. What I read about strength of blood relating to Caitiff could have been just a house rule someone made up, I can't remember. Because I read somewhere else that the lowest Generation a Caitiff can be is 10th, but that also could have been just a house rule.

But someone mentioned once somewhere I read that the traits of a vampire clan not imprinting on some of its members, regardless of Generation, could be a fluke sometimes, or some kind of mutation. Someone somewhere also mentioned that if a vampire has no one to tell them what they're supposed to be when they first become a vampire, then a newly undead vampire becomes the kind of vampire they expect vampires are supposed to be like. So if they think vampires are supposed to be unnaturally strong, they develop Potence. If they think vampires are supposed to turn into bats and mist, they develop Protean. If vampires are supposed to be romantic and alluring, they develop Presence. Vampires inexplicably becoming Caitiff could possibly be one of the ways new bloodlines come into existence.

You'll have to take what I say with a grain of salt. I lost all my WoD books a while ago and I'm mostly just going by memory or just thinking of what makes sense to me.

This post has been edited by sublime: 21 May 2005 - 02:19 AM

[Lost_Heretic]

There's a difference. Caitiff are clanless, whether left without a sire or otherwise disowned. Thin Bloods are those who's blood is too weak to belong to a clan. Thin bloods are always Caitiff, but Caitiff are not necessarily thin blooded. If I remember correctly, there are three members of the sixth generation that are considered to be the first Caitiff, but were not thin blooded. Atleast, that's how I've understood it.

As for Caitiff developing into how they think of vampires, I believe that was in WoD: Outcasts, as a way to support the twinky creation of Disciplines.

EDIT: Not that it's a bad idea, I just don't like Discipline creation. Except if it was a Discipline dealing with sound.

This post has been edited by Lost_Heretic: 21 May 2005 - 02:28 AM

[sublime]

Some STs limit Caitiff characters to just the eight general Disciplines (Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Fortitude, Obfuscate, Potence and Presence). I think the default Discipline set for Caitiff is Fortitude, Potence and Presence. I definitely wouldn't allow them access to Disciplines like Chimerstry, Obtenebration, Serpentis, Thaumaturgy, or any of the other clan specialty Disciplines, except maybe Protean because its powers are such a familar part of vampire folklore. Vicissitude I would only allow for a Caitiff if their sire was a Tzimisce or some other vampire infected with Vicissitude. I'd be really, really, really careful about letting Caitiff characters create their own custom Disciplines, because like Lost Heretic said, something like that can easily be abused and become unbalancing.

[Eldagusto]

Osiris and the Monitor of Cairo are two Methuselah Caitiffs.

[Temple]

Except, by this time, Osiris has become something entirely different..

[Vayu]

Yeah but if you look in Awakening Diablerie Mexico, the Wander is Gangrel and they state that. Even though he does not know that, he is still a Gangrel.

[Spikey]

Osiris and the Monitor of Cairo are two Methuselah Caitiffs.

Osiris is NOT and never was a Caitiff. Osiris knew his 2nd generation sire just as well as Set did. He didn't have a Clan because he was a Clan Founder like the rest of the 3rd Generation, but unless you're going to try and say those above the Clan definition are Caitiff, no he's not Caitiff.

And I think you mean the Prince of Cairo while we're at it!

Being a caitiff is a tough gig. You really have to work at staying ignorant of your Clan. It means never learning the basics of the Clans, and never being around people who know it. It means never being one of the Clans with the bloody obvious Clan Weaknesses or distinctive Blood carried Disciplines and never giving your blood to a Tremere (pre-Revised).

[Manakel]

Source: CotN. Mahatma, Monitor of Istambul, is of unknown clan, which means that at least socially, he's a 4th Gen Caitiff...

Many, many Gangrel are Embraced as Caitiff, and the Gangrel are responsible for a lot of abandoned childes: in the "tradicional" way, the Gangrel will meet her sire sometimes decades after the Embrace. Xaviar is a good example: he roamed for years before he "realized" he was a Gangrel.

The thing with these type of Caitiffs is that the blood is still strong in them, therefore the in-clan disciplines, even "exclusive" ones, should be almost instinctive, and the Clan weaknesses thoroughly role-played... Using the same example, Xaviar has several bat-like features he acquired on the first nights as a solitary beast.

And I don't think you have to spend the dots on the background: if you start as a mortal, you have no idea at character creation what exactly will happen to you, right? So why spend the need for spending those dots? If you go blind during the game the ST will not give you extra xp to compensate the flaw, will he/she?

My 2 cents

[Zearoth]

Cairo By Night also has mention of a 4th Generation Caitiff and Children of the Night also mentions a few methuselahs of unknown lineage, such as Elimelech (somewhere between 2nd and 5th generations!).

[Ali Baba]

Hehe, its not like The Monitor gives away what clan he is! If you read his embrace, it may well be Malkav...

Anyway, he's part of the Inconnu, and I guess that is the most social life that vamp ever got. I have a problem seeing thousands year old vampires sitting with a water-pipe at a coffee-shop in the midst of Cairo!

His disciplines aren't statted, but I think Obsfuscate should be one of them. Very much, at insane amounts. Apropos insane, it does say Mahatma got some serious derangements.

So, since we don't know his clan, he's Caitiff? I think he was put up as unknown clan in the book, so the ST could decide and make some weird plot around it. Like WW got a habit of doing...

[Spikey]

So, since we don't know his clan, he's Caitiff? I think he was put up as unknown clan in the book, so the ST could decide and make some weird plot around it. Like WW got a habit of doing...

Yeah, but only so they can suddenly make them vital to half the metaplot three years later and publish a Clan, thereby screwing over most Stortellers.

and I bet he ain't a Caitiff, I bet he knows what his clan is.

[Manakel]

I also believe Mahatma knows EXACTLY what clan he is, since he was probably Embraced by an Antedelluvian! But that doesn't make him less Caitiff to the eyes of the "general" public, doesn't it?

And I honestly believe Elimelech was Embraced by the Malkavian Antedelluvian (how else could you explain the Dementation 9 on his stats?). If I ever "use" him, and probably I won't, I'll make him a Malkavian Methuselah.

My humble 2 cents

[JadeMage]

Ok I am going to be stariting a two person RP with my wife here in the next couple of days. I am going to be starting the characters off as mortals. Now I think I am going to be using Absinth_Minded's stuff from over in the Vampiric strength thread. What I was all so wondering how you would do the generation backgroud. Lets say the vampire that embraces them is 8th Gen.

Okay, so back to the actual topic at hand.

You're going to be starting the characters off as Mortals. How soon until they're actually Embraced? Are you going to let them play as mortals for several sessions, or spend one single session before they're Embraced?

If it's the former, have them create Mortal characters, with normal Mortal Stats and Backgrounds. If not, then have them create a vampire character. Or heck, have them create sheets for both.

So now for the Generation Background. Typically, the Embrace results in a Vampire one Generation lower than the Sire, and of the Sire's Clan. Unless of course, you're dealing with a 13th or 14th Gen vampire, and/or the Childe is abandoned for one reason or another by the Sire.

My ruling would be is that because I'M deciding the character's Gen by choosing their Sire and Clan, then those 4 points of Generation would be free, allowing them to spend dots on other backgrounds instead. Only fair, really.